C't test results. burners.

[alexnoe]

Concerning the TA test, the drive is reporting about one hundred thousand pairs (land/pit - pit/land, pit/land - land/pit), and everything you see in plextools is a machine-made analysis of the histogramme built from that data. So unless the histogramme itself is not at least a bit constant for several runs on the same disc, the flaw could very well be in the plextools, and not in the drive

[RJW]

It's indeed consistancy were it goes wrong. 3 measurements after each other can mean 3 different pictures. Also 2 drives is 2 different scores sometimes.
(Wasn't that last one also spotted on some japanese site ??)

So the people with the profesional equipement say something from nice try but it didn't work.
Same behaviour with jitter.

However there is one thing seeing the huge quality fluctuation with current plextor drives that are reported the tests so far could have been done with models that had some problems in this area.
In other world if your drive does report the same based on a couple of 100th 1000th measurements then count yourself lucky.
Also there is another factor I don't know what spots the drive chooses and if there allways the same. This also might explain the variations spotted if it picks up quite random spots.

[frank1]

Thanks a lot for your comments on the TA test and keep on publishing summaries from the c't magazine !

So I have to understand that a "phase change" dye has pits and lands juste like a cyanine dye
and for the TA test it is just the same unreliable thing on RW ...


By the way I have to ask if "alexnoe" has seen this thread:
"German c't magazine has tested the 4163b"
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=122072
where "Kenshin" has a lot to say ...

[alexnoe]

I have seen the thread.

I can easily include a reliability check in PxScan in the next version for TA tests, i.e running the test a couple of times and showing how big the differences are

[MediumRare]

c't has another DVD-Burner and media test in the latest (pre-Cebit) issue 6/2005 on sale in Europe on Monday. They're apparently doing these more often now, because this time round there are only 2 burners and 2 new 16x media types.

Media
The 16x DVD+R media from TDK and DVD-R from Verbatim (MCC) are new. Their physical properties were analyzed by Audiodev from unburnt discs. The c't weighted mechanical quality index is based on these results:

Code: Select all

                                DVD+R 16x     DVD-R 16x
                     Bound      TDK           Verbatim
                                TDK 003       MCC 03RG20
AxialN  [mu]         0.2         0.257          0.211   
RadialN [nm]         25        117.9           36.2     
RRO [mu]             70         12             20       
PPb                  0.3-0.6    0-45-0.51      0.23-0.26
PPb DV               15%         6.7%           6.9%   
Mech. Index/ Grade             -17 / --         75 / ++

The TDK media have extremely large radial tracking deviations, the other values are good. The MCC discs have excellent physical properties. Strangely, the burners with which they tested these media had less problems with TDK. These results are summarized in the last table below.

Drives
As usual, I'll tabulate the c't quality index along with the grade (see http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=101936#101936 for a description of this index and the grade).

The first table contains model and firmware and the c't grade for various categories. The quality and speed ratings for DVDs are now combined in a single grade. Speed ratings for DVD rewritables are still based on 4x media because )in contrast to Ian ) they didn't have access to faster media.

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                      DVD Burns    Reading      Noise
Model +  Firmware      SL / DL    DVD / CD  VideoDVD/CD

LiteOn      JS02        + / +       + / ++       - / --
SOHW-1673S

Pioneer     1.17        - / +      ++ / 0       -- / 0
DVR-109                                 (109XL)  + / +

The next table contains the actual and recommended burning speed for the new drives and selected media. The recommended speed is based on details of the scans. The second line shows the c't quality index and grade (# means POFs occurred).

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             DVD+R DL      DVD+R DL    DVD+R 16x    DVD+R 16x   DVD-R 16x
             MCC (Verb.)   Ricoh       MCC (Verb.)  TDK         Verbatim
             MKM001        RicohJPN    MCC 004      TDK 003     MCC 03RG20
Model                      D00                                 

LiteOn         4 / 4      2.4 / 2.4      8 / 4       16 / 12      16 / 16
SOHW-1653S    52 / +       33 / 0        4 / -       30 / 0       51 / + 

Pioneer        6 / 4      2.4 / 2.4     16 / 4       16 / 8       16 / 4 
DVR-109       20 / -       27 / 0     -355 / --#   -255 / --#   -391 / --#

The final table contains the actual and recommended burning speed for the new media types for these drives (repeated) and selected drives from earlier tests.

Code: Select all

                       DVD+R 16x    DVD-R 16x
                       TDK          Verbatim
                       TDK 003      MCC 03RG20
Model +  Firmware

LG          A102        16 / 4        16 / 4 
GSA-4163B             -561 / --#     -38 / --

LiteOn      JS02        16 / 12       16 / 16
SOHW-1673S              30 / 0        51 / + 

NEC         1.04        16 / 16       16 / 16
ND-3520A                29 / 0        23 / - 

Philips     3.2         16 / 12       16 / 12
DVDRW1645K              26 / 0      -132 / --#

Pioneer     1.17        16 / 8        16 / 4 
DVR-109               -255 / --#    -391 / --#

Plextor     1.04        16 / 8        16 / 4 
PX-716A                -82 / --     -193 / --#

Apparently LiteOn has finally got a grip on the burning quality, although MCC004 was only burned at 8x and TYG02 (not shown) aborted. The drive read all copy-protected audio CDs and did well on damaged DVDs.

According to c't, Pioneer has stopped selling retail drives and is only supplying OEM models. The 109 wrote all media @16x but with poor quality. It has excellent error correction and reading properties (reads DVD-RAM, fastest drive with dual layer media) but rips audio CDs at only 7x and passes on most copy protections.

Plextor and LG have massive problems with the new media. Of the "older" drives, NEC did best.

G

[alexnoe]

MCC 03RG20 is DVD-R, not DVD+R (-> your 1st table)

[MediumRare]

MCC 03RG20 is DVD-R, not DVD+R (-> your 1st table)

Thanks. Was a "search and replace" relic. Just changed it.

G

[frank1]

About something on page 4 of this thread ...

The only thing you'll need is the DVD-RAM driver from LG. With that you can copy files onto your DVD-RAM if the DVD-RAM where a floppy.

I like to use a DVD-RAM in a LG 4163B with Windows 98 SE

What is then the so called a DVD-RAM driver under Windows 98 SE ?
Is InCD needed to be installed permanently if you want to write to a DVD-RAM with drag and drop like on a floppy ?

[RJW]

Small update from C't site in number 9-2005 they did some retests and it was mentioned in the news part. (no real article !)

LG GSA-4163B - According to C't the update let's the drive read dual Layer -R. In a small test they didn't notice any improvements for Verbatim (MCC004) 16x DVD+R (Which performed very bad in earlier tests in C't test but did better in tests done with home equipement.)

Pioneer DVR-109 (1.40 firmwae) - Still problems with Verbatim (MCC) 16x DVD+R and DVD-R above 8x.

Plextor PX-716A - In a short test with RICOH,Verbatim and SONY 16x media plextor did burn the disc's good however it did this by decreasing the speed to 12x or even 6x on the last part of the disc.
With Ritek 16x DVD+R the perfomance was still bad.

About dual Layer -R they say only that plextor with 1.06 looks to be burning better as the Pioneer DVR-109 with 1.40 firmware.

[MediumRare]

c't has a test of some new media in the latest issue 10/2005.

The main emphasis of the test is on the new Verbatim DVD-R DL media. They also had a look at the 16x + and - media that Sony is marketing (made in Salzburg, Austria).

The physical properties of these disks were analyzed by Audiodev from unburnt discs. The c't weighted mechanical quality index is based on these results:

Code: Select all

                               DVD-R DL 4x          DVD+R 16x   DVD-R 16x
                     Bound     Verbatim             Sony        Sony   
                               MKM 01RD30           SONYD21     SONY16D1
Focuserror [mu] (max/av)        1.22 / 0.22
LPPb / PW                     0.15-0.26 / -89.9°
AxialN  [mu]         0.2         0.211               0.246       0.180   
RadialN [nm]         25         25.5 / 7.6          88.5         44.6     
RRO [mu]             70         40                  36           23       
PPb                  0.3-0.6    0.31-0.34           0.40-0.55    0.29-0.38
PPb DV               15%        10.6%               16.6%        13.5%   
Mech. Index/ Grade               49 / 0             -7 / --       55 / + 

(They didn't explain the parameters and bounds specific to DL media in this issue.)

The next table contains the actual and recommended burning speed for the new media and selected drives. The recommended speed is based on details of the scans. The second line shows the c't quality index and grade.

Although both Plextor and Pioneer will burn the DL at 6x, c't stayed with 4x for this test because they wanted to look at basics of this new media type, rather than speed.

Code: Select all

                       DVD-R DL 4x     DVD+R 16x   DVD-R 16x
                       Verbatim        Sony        Sony   
                       MKM 01RD30      SONYD21     SONY16D1
Model +  Firmware

LiteOn      JS05                        16 / 16       16 / 12
SOHW-1673S                              76 / ++       57 / + 

NEC         1.04                        16 / 16       16 / 16
ND-3520A                                26 / 0        50 / + 

Philips     3.4                         16 / 8        16 / 12
DVDRW1645SP                            -10 / --       54 / + 

Pioneer     1.40           4x         
DVR-109                   67 / +       

Plextor     1.06           4x           12 / 8        12 / 8 
PX-716A                   84 / ++        6 / -        19 / - 

The Sony DVD-R have good physical properties, the DVD+R have very high radial deviations and need stricter QA-measures. Of the drives tested, LiteOn (gasp ) did best.

The new DVD-R DL media also have good physical properties and the 2 tested drives give excellent results. However, there are great problems in reading them. c't tried them on various drive types with following success rates:

• 10 / 15 DVD-Burners
• 1 / 11 DVD-ROM drives + 4 just layer 1 (!!!!)
• 12 / 16 DVD-Players (standalone) + 4 just layer 1
• 4 / 7 DVD-Recorders (standalone) + 1 just layer 1

Of the current models of DVD-ROM drives tested, only the Philips PCDV5016 was able to read the disk completely.
This is an inherent problem of the book type: DVD-R. A lot of drives apparently don't expect a second layer for this type and (at present?) there is no possibilty to set the book-type to DVD-ROM (as for the +R DL media).

Ian- have you gotten around to doing some reading tests with your -R DL's?

G

[MediumRare]

In some other reports, c't also had a short look at the NEC ND-3540A (fw1.01), the external Sony DRX-720UL (fw JY02) and the slimline drive Teac DV-W28EW (fw R.0A).

Salient points:
NEC: DVD+R DL burns @8x produce too many errors- stay with 4x. DVD-R DL goes at 6x (no information on quality). Reading properties (error correction, copy protected audio CD's) lag behind 3520

Sony: uses Prolific PL3507 interface chip and supports full 16x speed with both USB (!!) and firewire, but firmware is not good- use LiteOn 1673S fw

Teac: Good reader, burns @8x in 14 min (vs 18 min @4x) but high errors at end. 4x OK. No DL-capability

G
[edit]corrected typo[/edit]

[dodecahedron]

Of the current models of DVD-ROM drives tested, only the Philips PCDV5016 was able to read the disk [DVD-R DL] completely.

i find that rather ironic!

[MediumRare]

Of the current models of DVD-ROM drives tested, only the Philips PCDV5016 was able to read the disk [DVD-R DL] completely.

i find that rather ironic!

Why ?

G

[dodecahedron]

well, a Phillips drive the only drive managing to read a DVD-R DL disc?

[Halc]

Also got c't 10/2005. The DVD-R DL initial quality/compatibility is HORRIBLE.

It works practically in no dvd-rom, only in about half of the dvd-burners and cause errors for several DVD rack players (including Pioneer models!).

If that's the quality Pioneer is giving us, the future doesn't look very bright for DVD-R DL at this stage, imho :)

[MediumRare]

c't has a short test (no diagrams or numerical ratings) for the BenQ DW1640, fw BSHB in the latest issue (13/2005).

This is the first drive they've tested that is capable of burning all 16x media they tried with low error rates (Verbatim, Sony, Ricoh). Same goes for Verbatim 6x +RW media. Ricoh 8x +RW should go through at least 2 write/erase cycles prior to general use, though.

The results with DL media are not so good: in all cases error levels are high in the second layer (Verbatim +DL 8x, -DL 4x, Ricoh +DL 2.4x).

Reading results and error correction were also very good, but the drive choked on most copy-protected audio CDs.

Incidentally, the next issue (No. 14, coming in 2 weeks) will apparently have a comprehensive media test, so that's something to look forward to.

G

[Ian]

The results with DL media are not so good: in all cases error levels are high in the second layer (Verbatim +DL 8x, -DL 4x, Ricoh +DL 2.4x).

How high?

[MediumRare]

The results with DL media are not so good: in all cases error levels are high in the second layer (Verbatim +DL 8x, -DL 4x, Ricoh +DL 2.4x).

How high?

They didn't say (it was just a short look). They were high enough, though, that some discs weren't readable. Again, the details on this are missing.

G

[dolphinius_rex]

I think I actually HAVE some Ricoh DVD+R9 media now (need to double check that one), so I'll check this one out.

I seem to remember that someone (I think it was CDFreaks) did a preview of the DW1640 burning a Verbatim 2.4x DVD+R9 at 8x with decent enough results.

[Bhairav]

I think I actually HAVE some Ricoh DVD+R9 media now (need to double check that one), so I'll check this one out.

I seem to remember that someone (I think it was CDFreaks) did a preview of the DW1640 burning a Verbatim 2.4x DVD+R9 at 8x with decent enough results.

Yep, it was them..
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/193/1

[frank1]

Do you have any further information about
the new BenQ DW1640 burner making high PIF errors at the layer brake
even on Verbatim MKM-001

like reported in this thread:
" BenQ 1640 new firmware and Verbatim, very bad mix! "
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=138150

[frank1]

There are scans in the just above mentioned thread

[Scour]

@frank1:

Do you burn only 4 GB on a DL-media?

[frank1]

It is only about what happens on the "layer brake" position
It is the unique position where I get sometimes problems with double layer burning, for example a "freeze and stop or chapter-jump " in a movie

[MediumRare]

The latest issue (14/2005) of the German computer magazine c't has a comprehensive test of DVD media (44 types, over 60 brands). There is a great deal of information in this issue, including a description of the basics of quality testing. Anyone who can get this magazine should do so!

Since I'm at home with back problems , I can draw up a summary of the results. Please note that this represents the German market so that some brands may be unfamiliar- most media codes should show up elsewhere too, though.

The tests consist of 4 parts:

• Test burns with Philips DVDR1645, NEC ND-3540A and one of 2 DVD-Videorecorders (Philips DVDR 610 or Pioneer DVR-220), evaluated with Audiodev CATS scans
• compatibility tests with Plextor PX-716A, LG GSA-4163B, Pioneer DVR-109 and LiteOn SOHW-1673S, evaluated with an Almedio AEC-1000
• limited climatic stabilty tests (100 hours 80°C, 85% humidity) evaluated with Almedio AEC-1000
• physical properties of unburnt disc, subsequent test for optimal laser power and power margin (Audiodev)

The test burns with DVD-Videorecorders check for compatibility of high-speed media with these 1x-burners. With lowspeed media becoming increasingly rare, this is an important item for users of these devices!

The Almedio AEC-1000 is an external testing device that c't looked at a couple of months ago (6/2005: price ca. 3845 Euros). It allows only PI Sum 8 and POF scans at 1x and 4x. Results are similar to Audiodev CATS DVD Pro scans, but the counts are lower- ca. 1/2 to 1/3 @4x and even lower at 1x. Hence they deemed it as a useful quick, simple and reliable quality testing instrument for non-demanding purposes. I guess they have one in house now because they use it for some of the comparisons.

The "climatic stabilty tests" were done by comparing before/after scans of the 2 best discs checked with the AEC-1000. The result is a trend, not a lifetime: a medium that survives this test well should be more stable than one that did not.

The power margin is determined by special tests performed by Audiodev with modified BenQ and Pioneer drives. They simulated the power calibration tests that burners perform in an inner and outer zone of the disc to determine the optimal laser power (based on starting values coded on the disc). The power is successively increased and the resulting jitter determined. The power margin is the power range where both zones exhibit jitter < 9%. This is an indication of the tolerance the media exhibits for power variation. The optimum power thus determined often differs significantly from the coded value, which is kept as low as possible and is based on a different laser type than most drives use for burning (single beam, numerical aperture=0.60 vs. triple beam NA=0.65).

There is too much information to go into detail here. I'll post a 1-line summary per media type with the salient "quality grades" (++, +, 0, -, -- think A-E):
- mechanical index (see this post)
- power margin (roughly >17%, 12%, 8%, 5%, rest)
- writing quality (see this post)
- compatibilty (based on the 6 drives tested)
- speed (no details re. grade, but uniform: 4x cannot be better than - )
- climatic stabilty (no details re. grade)

Here is a summary grouped by media type and speed.

DVD-R 4x media

Code: Select all

Name and brands             MID           Mech.Ind.  PowM  Writ  Comp  Speed Stab.

BeAll (SKC)                 BeAll G4001    51 / +     --    +     0     -     --

Interaxia (Gut und Billig)  VDSPMSAB 01   -18 / --    --    0     -     --    -

King Pro Mediatek (e-top)   DKMZ01         44 / 0     --    --    -     --    --

Moser Baer India            MBI 01RG20     10 / -     -     0     +     --    --
(MMore, no name)

Optodisc (SK)               OPTODISCR004    2 / -     --    0     0     --    ++

Ritek (Maxell, Octron)      RITEKG04       71 / +     -     ++    ++    -     0

SKC (Gigatain)              SKC Co.,Ltd   -83 /--     -     0     0     --    --

DVD+R 4x media

Code: Select all

Name and brands             MID           Mech.Ind.  PowM  Writ  Comp  Speed Stab.

BeAll (SKC)                 BeAll000 P40   10 / -     --    0     0     -     --

Digital Disc Dessau (SK)    DDDessau V20   -6 / --    --    +     ++    -     --

Moser Baer India            MBIPG101 R03   44 / 0     +     +     +     -     ++
(no name)

Optodisc                    OPTODISC 0R4   21 / -     +     +     ++    -     --
(Gut und Billig, Classic)

Plasmon (e-top)             POMSI002 01   -47 / --    --    0     -     --    --

Ritek (Octron)              RITEK R02      46 / 0     +     +     +     -     ++

DVD-R 8x media

Code: Select all

Name and brands             MID           Mech.Ind.  PowM  Writ  Comp  Speed Stab.

CMC (Emtec, Ricoh)          CMC MAG AE1    37 / 0     --    +     0     0     ++

Fuji                        FUJIFILM03     70 / +     --    -     -     -     ++
(Imation, Intenso, Philips, Fuji)

MAM-E (Primeon)             MAM8XG01       69 / +     0     -     -     -     +

Mitsubishi Chemicals        MCC 02RG20     75 / ++    -     0     0     0     ++
(Memorex, Verbatim)

Optodisc                    OPTODISCR008   60 / +     0     0     -     -     +
(Samsung Pleomax, TIP)

Ritek (Platinum)            RITEKG05       74 / +     -     --    -     -     --

Sony (Sony)                 SONY08D1       73 / +     +     0     0     -     --

Taiyo Yuden                 TYG02          70 / +     +     0     0     -     --
(Plextor, Fuji, Verbatim)

TDK (TDK)                   TTH01          35 / 0     ++    +     +     +     +

DVD+R 8x media

Code: Select all

Name and brands             MID           Mech.Ind.  PowM  Writ  Comp  Speed Stab.

CMC (Emtec, Memorex)        CMC MAG E01     4 / -     +     ++    +     0     ++

Infomedia (Philips)         INFOME R20     47 / 0     +     -     -     -     0

MAM-E (Primeon)             MAM M02        20 / -     --    --    -     --    ++

Mitsubishi Chemicals        MCC 003        55 / +     --    0     0     0     0
(HP, Verbatim)              17 R1 c

Moser Baer India            MBIPG101 R04   56 / +     0     +     +     0     ++
(Intenso, Imation MMore)

Nanya                       NANYA CHX      49 / 0     --    -     0     -     --
(TIP, i-b@se, MakroMarkt)

Optodisc (Samsung)          OPTODISC 0R8  -26 / --    0     +     0     0     0

Plasmon (Sky)               Plasmon1 C01   -7 / --    --    -     0     -     ++

Ricoh (Platinum, Ricoh)     RICOHJPN R02   79 / ++    --    +     +     0     ++

Sony (Sony)                 SONY D11       66 / +     ++    0     +     0     -

Taiyo Yuden (Plextor)       YUDEN00 T02    60 / +     ++    -     0     +     +

Gigatain Macau (Gigatain)   YUDEN00 T02    23 / -     --    --    -     0     0

TDK (TDK)                   TDK 002        66 / +     +     -     -     0     -

DVD-R 16x media

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Name and brands             MID           Mech.Ind.  PowM  Writ  Comp  Speed Stab.

Maxell (Maxell)             MXL RG04       80 / ++    n.a.  -     -     +     0

Mitsubishi C. (Verbatim)    MCC 03RG20     85 / ++    -     0     0     ++    +

Sony (Sony)                 SONY16D1       80 / ++    n.a.  +     +     ++    --

TDK (TDK, Imation)          TTH02          54 / +     -     -     0     +     0

DVD+R 16x media

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Name and brands             MID           Mech.Ind.  PowM  Writ  Comp  Speed Stab.

Maxell (Maxell)             MAXELL 003     48 / 0     --    0     --    0     -

Mitsubishi C. (Verbatim)    MCC 004        40 / 0     --    0     -     0     +

Ricoh (Ricoh)               RICOHJPN R03   45 / 0     --    -     -     0     --

Sony (Sony)                 SONY D21       66 / +     -     -     0     +     --

TDK (TDK)                   TDK 003       -14 / --    --    0     0     +     --

Umfortunately I can't / won't post details for the writing compatibility (quality) and speed- just some general remarks. There are 6 drives and 2 DVD-Recorders with 2 scanning systems involved and I've run out of energy.

The NEC 3540 (fw 1.01) and Pioneer 109 (fw 1.40) had the least problems successfully writing a disc. LG 4163B (fw A104) and LiteOn 1673S (JS07) are pickiest with media, Philips (fw 3.40) tries to write too fast. Plextor (1.06) improved quality by reducing speed and is intermediate in this game.

If someone asks nicely, I may post more details (or someone else can).

Now some general conclusions:
- the perfect disc (power tolerant, high speed, generally compatible, good quality, stable) doesn't exits yet- there is always a trade-off. E.g. the MAM-E may be very stable climatically, but if the disc isn't readable to start with, who cares?
- it's no suprise for regulars to this forum that their are "counterfeit" MID's in circulation. The crassest example they found was Gigatain "Made in Macau" which initially used TY MID's, then switched to MCC.
- you don't always know what you're getting when you buy by brand, e.g. Imation (again no surprise for regulars here).
- good 4x media is rare. The Riteks are the best available at present. Once these disappear, owners of a 4x burner will have to look for a new drive. This has been discussed here in the forum too.
- the best 8x media are TDK TTH01 (-R). The 8x +R media from CMC and MBI also do very well- apparently they've learned a lot from their work for MCC!
- the best 16x media are from Sony and Verbatim, whereby Sony has better writing quality but climatic stability problems.
- the 16x -R medai are generally better than +R media. This may be inherent in the system. See this thread
- the DVD-Videorecorders (mostly) coped well with 4x and 8x media. 16x is another game entirely- the Pioneer burned all 16x -R discs, the Philips coped with only the Sony media!

c't also drew up a list of 5 recommended media for each drive. These are (in alphabetic order):

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LiteOn SOHW-1673S  MBI +R 8x, MCC -R 16x, Optodisc +R 8x, Ricoh +R 8x, Sony -R 16x
LG GSA-4163B       MBI +R 8x, Sony -R 16x, TY +R 8x, TDK -R 16x, TDK -R 8x
NEC BD-3540A       Sony +R 8x, Sony -R 16x, Sony -R 8x, TDK -R 16x, TDK -R 8x
Philips DVDR1645K  CMC +R 8x, CMC -R 8x, Ricoh +R 8x, Sony -R 16x, TDK -R 8x
Pioneer DVR-109    MCC -R 8x, Sony -R 16x, TDK +R 16x, TDK +R 8x, TDK -R 8x
Plextor PX-716A    MCC +R 8x, MCC -R 16x, MCC -R 8x, TY +R 8x, TDK +R 16x

So that was the longest post I've ever worked on. Time for a beer (except I can't because of the painkillers for my back ).

G