why is there so little discussion about the Lite-On 401/411?

[dodecahedron]

i wonder: how come there is so little discussion about the Lite-On 401S and 411S drives?

considering the flurry of activity that followed the release of the Sony DRU-500 and the Plextor 708, and also considering the very high anticipation for the Lite-On drives, there is very little discussion about them, and this is very surprising.
i read all of the topics in the DVD Recordable forum and follow them all. apart from a few brief remarks about problems with media and writing quality there's nothing.
a question of mine here went unanswered...

i just don't understand this.

i was away from the 'labs for a certain period of time a short while ago, and i gather that during that time was the whole 401/411 upgrade business. could it be that all this "missing" discussion was in a topic that got deleted and i missed it?
or should i head over to cdfreaks ?

[Bhairav]

Hi dodecahedron. macnow started a thread with links on how to convert the 401S to the 411S. I guess it got deleted? Also, the 411S seems to have spotty media compatibility, especially with cheap -R media.Dunno why there is such little discussion about the drives here @ cdrlabs though. Weird. CDFreaks on the other hand.. every 2nd thread is some disgruntled person wanting to send his 411 back. Poor rdgrimes is shouting himself hoarse there.

[OC-Freak]

Yes it seems like all the people whining about problems with the Lite-On DVD-writers is at cdfreaks at the moment.

Annoying as not all the whining is because the drive is bad, but because people is using crap media.......

Anyway, if anyone is interested, here is some DVD-R write tests and k-probe scans:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php ... adid=78557

[dodecahedron]

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78557

nice

[rdgrimes]

I'm not hoarse, but my fingers are sore.

I'm just as pleased as can be with mine, does ever so much more than I expected it to do, and with a few more firmware updates I'm confident that it'll be THE drive for quality burns. Of course, given the rather sad lack of testing tools for other drives, LiteOn may win the quality contest by default.

The real news is that the 811 is lurking around the corner. But the media makers have a lot of catching up to do.

[dodecahedron]

rdgrimes, what is your drive? 401 or 411?

Of course, given the rather sad lack of testing tools for other drives, LiteOn may win the quality contest by default.

not much of a win, is it?

[rdgrimes]

rdgrimes, what is your drive? 401 or 411?

Yes

not much of a win, is it?

No

[dodecahedron]

I'm just as pleased as can be with mine, does ever so much more than I expected it to do, and with a few more firmware updates I'm confident that it'll be THE drive for quality burns.

i find this interesting (and encouraging), especially since most posts about this drive seem to infer bad writing quality/reading ability/whatever!
(browsing cdfreaks now...)

well, like you say, the 811 is around the corner and hopefully by the time it comes, apart from 8x also all the writing quality issues will have been ironed out.
we can hope.

[rdgrimes]

I don't see any write-quality issues, I see crappy media issues. The DVD formats do not allow for much error in the media tracking, but DVD+ is much more tolerant of error than DVD-. It does appear that some drives may be better at tracking poor media than others, but they'll work it out. They always do. The issue of media will only be more pronounced on the 8x drives. I think the media companies need a year to catch up. Although, if ti wasn't for the drive makers forcing the issue, media companies might never make the needed improvement.
I haven't seen any comparisons of burn time on a 8x CAV drive compared to 4x CLV, I wonder how much it is....

[aviationwiz]

I'm just as pleased as can be with mine, does ever so much more than I expected it to do, and with a few more firmware updates I'm confident that it'll be THE drive for quality burns. Of course, given the rather sad lack of testing tools for other drives, LiteOn may win the quality contest by default.

OK, a couple things here:

1. Given the recent news of 2 firmwares for the LDW-411S, one with -R/RW media information, the other without, it seems very unlikely that the LDW-401S/411S will be anywhere near the top of the list of quality DVD Burners. (Amoung the top now are Plextor, LG, and Pioneer)

2. The only testing tools for Lite-On drives are the ones that they don't even want us to have (KProbe, LTNFlash, etc.) therefore, why support a company, that has the technology literaly at thier fingertips, but refuses to allow it to be released.

3. Quality testing can be done on Lite-On DVD-ROM drives and Lite-On CD-RW/DVD combo drives. There is no proof anywhere saying the DVD burners do a better job of it.

As far as I'm concerned, my LTD-163D does just as good a job doing a PI/PO scan as the LTD-166S, the LTC-4816H (or whatever the hell the model number is) or an LDW-411S.

Just to summarize it all up, as all my teachers have told me (tell them what your going to tell them, tell them what your telling them, and tell them what you just told them)

Lite-On is not even close to being a quality DVD burner manufacturer. While I agree that many of these issues are just because of low quality media, same goes for the PX-708A, there are also many issues about the disks being played in Xbox and the whole 2 types of firmware for the LDW-411S fiasco.

[dolphinius_rex]

I don't think Plextor rates in the top three DVD-Writers at all. As far as I'm concerned the top 3 are: the Optorite DD0203, and Pioneer A06, and the LG GSA-4040B. I know someone who was even GIVEN a plextor 708a and got rid of it simply because it was so problamatic!

As far the LiteON DVD writers go. I have no doubt that the LiteON 401s and 411s could be very good writers. Maybe not top of the line, but at least as good as some of the mid range burners. However I have a suspicion that the 401s will not be getting much support anymore, and that the 411s will be axed very quickly after the 811s comes out.

K-Probe testing appears to be fairly useless for testing DVD quality (as compared to its' usefulness in testing CD quality), so I will not be putting any DVD scans to proove how good or bad the burns are, since I don't think it will really proove anything. So far however, I have not made a single coaster on my LiteON 401s, and I have not had a single disc burned, not play in any device I've tried it on. So I'm happy so far

Of course the CD burning quality is INCREDIBLE!

[aviationwiz]

I don't think Plextor rates in the top three DVD-Writers at all. As far as I'm concerned the top 3 are: the Optorite DD0203, and Pioneer A06, and the LG GSA-4040B. I know someone who was even GIVEN a plextor 708a and got rid of it simply because it was so problamatic!

As far the LiteON DVD writers go. I have no doubt that the LiteON 401s and 411s could be very good writers. Maybe not top of the line, but at least as good as some of the mid range burners. However I have a suspicion that the 401s will not be getting much support anymore, and that the 411s will be axed very quickly after the 811s comes out.

Your friend, or whoever was given it must have used low quality media, as that'll ruin your expirience with any drive. The Lite-On drives of course have the possibility to be very good writers, but due to poor planning at Lite-On, it can't be. Mainly because of lack of extra tools that people like us like, KProbe, etc. The two different firmware fiasco is just really wierd, only really bad organization could do that.

As far as the top 3 burners, I can simply not put the Optorite on there because in my eyes, they don't have a very good reputation. Pioneer, LG, Plextor, and Lite-On all have very good reputations in my eyes.

[OC-Freak]

This is for aviationwiz:

1. Given the recent news of 2 firmwares for the LDW-411S, one with -R/RW media information, the other without, it seems very unlikely that the LDW-401S/411S will be anywhere near the top of the list of quality DVD Burners. (Amoung the top now are Plextor, LG, and Pioneer)

This was never proved and I did not get the firmware without the DVD-R/RW codes, so as far as I knows this may just be pure bullshit. Only one user was reporting that there were no DVD-R/RW codes and that user failed to provided the firmware/proof that they were not there.

2. The only testing tools for Lite-On drives are the ones that they don't even want us to have (KProbe, LTNFlash, etc.) therefore, why support a company, that has the technology literaly at thier fingertips, but refuses to allow it to be released.

This makes a bit sense, personally I would prefer Lite-On to make K-probe official and even bundle it with their writers! And start to improve it in the direction of PlexTools Yes I like plextools, to bad it do not work on my computer. Crashes every time I boot due to a PCI silicon image IDE controller I have, lazy bastards at plextor just ignores my problem and do not fix it......

3. Quality testing can be done on Lite-On DVD-ROM drives and Lite-On CD-RW/DVD combo drives. There is no proof anywhere saying the DVD burners do a better job of it.

I will make a comparison soon, but at least combo drives displays a very wrong result it seems, especially with PI/PO sum set to 8. Also DVD-ROM drives seems to be less than accurate especially since you can't limit the speed to CLV reading......

As far as I'm concerned, my LTD-163D does just as good a job doing a PI/PO scan as the LTD-166S, the LTC-4816H (or whatever the hell the model number is) or an LDW-411S.

In my opinion/experience: nope.

Out of the writers I have this is how I'll rate them:

1: Memorex Dual-X / Pioneer DVR-106.
2: Plextor PX-708A
3: Lite-On LDW-411S
4: LG GSA-4040

So far I've yet to find a disc that do not work in the Lite-On (yes some 4X discs is limited to 1X writing though), but I have found discs that do not work in the plextor!!! And I expect the media compatibility of the Lite-On (and hopefully the plex as well) to improve even more

[dhc014]

1. Given the recent news of 2 firmwares for the LDW-411S, one with -R/RW media information, the other without

OC, the codes are most definately not missing in the firmware. There was probably some problem or difference in the dumping procedure.

[dodecahedron]

As far as I'm concerned the top 3 are: the Optorite DD0203, and Pioneer A06, and the LG GSA-4040B.

may i ask why?
i understand why the Pioneer A06.
the LG appears to perform pretty well (and has -RAM! ) but i haven't heard that it's spectacular. and there have been issued with 4x DVD-R which i haven't heard resolved yet.
and most of all, why the Optorite DD0203? is it really so good? that's not the impression i got from the long Optorite thread (OK i uderstand you want to use Sanyo's UM Doctor...).
scanning through RJW's posts of C't magazine, it seems to me that the Plextor is as good as the LG (if not better?...)
do you have some more info on the burn quality of the LG and Optorite drives?

However I have a suspicion that the 401s will not be getting much support anymore

well, i certainly hope you're wrong there.
up till now Lite-On has been one of the best companies concerning giving support, including older drives. it will be a shame if this will change.

K-Probe testing appears to be fairly useless for testing DVD quality (as compared to its' usefulness in testing CD quality)

personally i think we still have to wait and see. we don't have enogh sampling data to make a valid conclusion.

2. The only testing tools for Lite-On drives are the ones that they don't even want us to have (KProbe, LTNFlash, etc.) therefore, why support a company, that has the technology literaly at thier fingertips, but refuses to allow it to be released.

first, this is not true, there's CD Doctor too.
second, this is kind of funny, since i'm sure Plextor "had the technology at their fingertips" too but we only got PlexTools Professional 5 months ago. where were they till then ? is it conceivable that the only reason we got it was KProbe ???
third, it's not totally accurate that they don't want us to have it. even after Lite-On became aware of KProbe the site was still available. they only cracked down on it really hard with the 401/411 fiasco.

@dave:
OC-Freak was quoting aviationwiz. what he actually wrote was

This was never proved and I did not get the firmware without the DVD-R/RW codes, so as far as I knows this may just be pure bullshit. Only one user was reporting that there were no DVD-R/RW codes and that user failed to provided the firmware/proof that they were not there.

[RJW]

Okay some remarks on all the stuff.

First the 3 best dual format dvd writers.
Well the 3 best dvd writers based on writing quality articles comming from different sources are:
Pioneer A06 - Best overall media support.

Plextor 708 -Less media support as Pioneer but the big names seem to perform slightly better and it has 8x DVD+R for 4 media (Only a serious option with MCC 4x media) . Most -r media that isn't supported has luckily proofed to be not the best stuff out there. Still some media could be better supported

LG GSA-4040B -A nice drive with tripel format suport. And excellent OPC at 2x. However -R 4x support is very limited to recommended media.
If your not ussing recommended -r media then there is a good change that your media will be burnt fine but only at 2x.

-R only
If people are intersted in only burning -r then buy the a05 it is even better at the a06.

The 3 poorest in random order dual format drives out there.
Sony DRU 500- Since it was the first dual drive. It might be logical that it gets it spot here.

Sony DRU 510- Tough choice between the NEC- N-1300 and this one. Why it's construction is better. It's firmware and firmware support isn't.
Sony hardly implemented support for new media and the old firmware shows also some weird behaviour. If this drive had better firmware support it wouldn't be at this place however in this case it's here.

Lite ON 411S - Lite On's attempt of a dual format writer. It's media writing quality has problems. A lot of pro-lite on people say well it's the media.
However with firmware FS02 it was not the case. Since it showed problems with Maxell and MCC manufactured media. These 2 manufacturers have proven that there -R stuff is as good as the +R media so in this case it isn't the media. The bigest problem seems that the drive seems to burn -R media that is quite incompatible for some reason (jitter /Assymetry). So far data on 401S have indicated that laser power is to weak and for this reason it's Assymetry turns out bad. This might be even more worse with -r media on the 411S. The ability to burn media is quite good however the playback with -R media really is problematic compared to the competition.
I think there's a good change can fix this with firmwares that is if they want.

Now some reactions

rdgrimes

I think the media companies need a year to catch up. Although, if ti wasn't for the drive makers forcing the issue, media companies might never make the needed improvement.
I haven't seen any comparisons of burn time on a 8x CAV drive compared to 4x CLV, I wonder how much it is....

Well media compannies are allready working on it by themselves but if some people want to go faster then the competition it works out differntly.
Infact quite some manufacturers are not changing there road map and for that reason there isn't 8x media arround yet and the drive manufacturers had to optimise 4x media to burn at 8x. MCC is allready working on faster media and materials for third parties to make -r media easier (Good -r Media in this case 8x media will be easier to make with the new stamper )

8x CAV, well +R should be able to make the move quite easilly compared to -R. Fact is that CLV is a easier mode to implement for quality cd burning as CAV. That's why Z-CLV is back. I think implementation of CAV technology for 8x writing would have returned in the media being earlier there as the drives.

rdgrimes on Lite On 411S
I don't see any write-quality issues, I see crappy media issues

Sorry but with FS02 the performance on Maxell and MCC shown different.
But the newer firmwares might have changed it.

[rdgrimes]

Sorry but with FS02 the performance on Maxell and MCC shown different.

I have seen no evidence of this, none.

[dhc014]

@dave:
OC-Freak was quoting aviationwiz. what he actually wrote was

This was never proved and I did not get the firmware without the DVD-R/RW codes, so as far as I knows this may just be pure bullshit. Only one user was reporting that there were no DVD-R/RW codes and that user failed to provided the firmware/proof that they were not there.

rgr... late night...

[dodecahedron]

zzz

[dolphinius_rex]

re: my friend's problems with the Plextor 708a, his problems began with the media packaged with the drive itself! (you can see how this would put a person off of the drive). And the problem continued with other media as well. I don't think he EVER got it to work at 8x (although I might be wrong on that one, he certainly never mentioned it if he did). He also not the sort of person who picks up the cheapest media, he's a lot pickier then the average person, and knows enough to pick reliable products. Now granted, my bias against the Plextor drive is mainly based on his experience, as well as the warnings of another person I know who played with the drive for a while as well... so it's possible they were simply 2 bad drives, shipped to 2 locations on opposite ends of the world (Europe and U.S.). So maybe I should not be QUITE so biased... but it's hard not to be!

Regarding the Optorite DD0203, other then UM Doctor Pro II, and Sanyo's reputation (which I couldn't actually care less about), I know a few people with this drive, who swear by it for all things DVD. Unfortunatly, at this time, it's REALLY difficult to prove anything, since we still have yet to find an agreed upon method for testing

Personally, I'm still stuck between buying the LG GSA-4040B, or the Optorite DD0203. I just need something to hold me over until Dual layered come out, and get cheaper! LOL!

You know it's funny (back on the topic of LiteON), despite everything (writing quality, lack of new firmware for a while, iffy compatability...) I'm still really happy with this drive. It was cheap, it burns well enough for now, and it's doing a good job of tiding me over for when I get a really good drive. And I can't believe the CD-R writing quality!

Dodecahedron: I hope I wrong about the firmware too! I want more support!

[rdgrimes]

since we still have yet to find an agreed upon method for testing

Don't mean to be contrary, but in actuality, very few people are having trouble agreeing upon a method for media testing.

[dolphinius_rex]

since we still have yet to find an agreed upon method for testing

Don't mean to be contrary, but in actuality, very few people are having trouble agreeing upon a method for media testing.

For DVDs? I put no faith in K-Probe for DVD testing anymore. It started looking like it was doing a good job, but after further testing, I have no doubt that it is not doing a proper job. For one, I get inconsistant results from scanning the same disc several times. Also, a good result on K-Probe does not mean it will play properly. Contrary wise, a lot of really poor quality burns (according to K-Probe) work really well even in really picky DVD-ROMs and players. I have seen NOTHING that makes me feel K-Probe is providing accurate info, and I'm seeing more and more to make me think otherwise.

[rdgrimes]

I get inconsistant results from scanning the same disc several times

Which is nothing new for error testing, particularly with discs that are "marginal" in quality. But you will believe what you wish to believe. I've used Kprobe quite a bit, and have never had cause to think it is displaying anything other than what the drive is reporting, which of course is the case. Kprobe doesn't have the ability to report, or interpret, anything. It simply measures what the drive reports, nothing more or less. It cannot make up errors or ignore them, or change their value. All it does is count them. Perhaps it is the nature of read errors that confuses you?

[aviationwiz]

I can't speak for rex, but I do agree that the software must be reporting what it is being told. It is whether the testing devices (DVD-ROM, Combo Drive, DVD Burner) are correctly reporting the errors. From rex's comments, I would have to say that no, the drives are not correctly reporting the errors.

[rdgrimes]

As far as I'm concerned, my LTD-163D does just as good a job doing a PI/PO scan as the LTD-166S

I think the correct phrase would be: "just as bad".
Neither of them allow speed setting in Kprobe. Scanning in CAV at 8x will never be comparable to scanning in CLV, which is the DVD standard.
We can argue all day about "proper" scan speeds and strategy, but you cannot compare a scan done at 8x with one done at any other speed.

Also there's no such thing as "incorrectly reporting errors", they are either reported or not reported. So "incorrectly reporting" errors simply means "not reporting". Unless someone thinks that a drive is able to report an error when one did not occur, which would be very interesting indeed. I'm not saying that "drive y" is necessarily correct if it reports "error x" as being a C1 or PI error. But whatever it is reporting, it should be doing it the same very time.

The only real question is *what* is being reported as a C1 or C2 or PI or PO. But even that is more or less irrelevant, as long as a drive reports the same thing, every time, as being "error x". And there's no reason to assume they are not doing just that, in fact it may be impossible for them to not do that. Same for the software.
It may well be, (in fact probably is), that different drives or reporting programs will report different things as being "C1 or PI", and for this reason (and other reasons) you shouldn't attempt to compare scans from different drives or programs.

Apples and oranges again.

We do not know if ROM drives are reporting the same things (as PI or PO) as the burners are, but most reasonable people might conclude that it appears they are not. But since they cannot scan at the same speed as the burners, comparisons are questionable at best. I have to assume that since Kprobe was written specifically for use with burners, that it reports, (and the burners report), exactly what the designers of them intended. At the very least, they report consistantly the same things. They do not report "error x" as a PI today, and "error y" as a PI tomorrow.