Dual or not to Dual?

[minchin]

Its time to upgrade my DVD recorder. Coming from a DVD+ camp (Phillips DVDRW228), I would of course want to move to the Dual format drive.
However, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if dual format is really necessary. I have accumulated a good stock of +R and +RW media. Nowadays, good quality (Memorex, Verbatim, TDK) +R and -R discs are of the same price. Even though I do know that -R might hold a little bit of advantage when it comes down to DVD player compatibility (personal experience + posts everywhere).

I have my eye on the NU 0801 8X +R/RW drive and maybe the new Optorite 0401/LiteOn 811s and maybe the Pioneer A07. If the difference is about $30(NU is about $155 and the Optorite was seen at Livewarehouse for around $179), I guess this isn't much. However, if the price is more than $50 (Nu vs Plextor $230), then is it still worth it?

So for the Dualists out there, when you want to make a DVD (Video or backup) and you have 2 stack of +R and -R disc, which one do you pick most? Why? How about the the -RW/+RW case? Do you end up using one format more than the other?

Thanks for some inputs....

Min

[RJW]

The Nutech looks to be a good burner based on the writing quality it has shown in the C't tests. However it also showed some problems. Still for a first release the quality was excellent. No if the can solve the problems with firmwares then this really is an interresting drive for people that need +R only.

The quality of the Optorite and the Lite On 801S and Pioneer a07 is at this moment unknown. Except some tests in the upcomming month.
The Pioneer A07 has I think the best cards based on the media support of the older 4x drives.

The pro's of the plextor 708 vs the Nutech 8x drive.
Supports the media of the better manufacturers for -R.
Better for copying protected audio and data cd's.
In europe a 2 year warranty.

[dolphinius_rex]

for the record, DVD+R is *still* more expensive, even if you pay the same price for it

What you see is various computer stores, and (more often) various brand names, dropping their profit margins on DVD+R media in order to price match their DVD-R media (alternatively you could also look at it as increasing the DVD-R profit margins). DVD+R media still costs more when purchasing it directly from the manufacturer. In fact, it costs about $0.15 (USD) more per disc then the equivilant DVD-R disc! This is one of the reasons why most manufacturers (it appears everyone except for MCC) actually are in favour of DVD-R (at least from my corraspondences with them).

[UALOneKPlus]

If I had to do it all over again, I would have saved some money and just bought a DVD+R/RW burner.

No need to dual it.

[bob11879]

Dual is not "necessary", but if you generate a lot of DVDs to run on different players, i.e, home, your summer cabin, your SUV, your office computer, Playstation, etc, not all players are compatible with both -R or +R and you may find that one format works better in some players than in others.

[treemana]

One thing I like about having a dual burner, is being able to purchase which ever media is on sale at a given time. For example a local Fry's store recently had 25-spindles of Memorx DVD+R on sale for $29.99, while the -Rs were $49.99. The next time I visited, it was the -Rs that were on sale. (Although, Amazon had them both at $29.99 last time I checked.)

As far as one format being better than the other, I haven't noticed it. Both of my DVD players (XBox, and PS/2) will play either R-type media (+R or -R) and won't play either type or RW-type media. (Although occasionally, if the wind is blowing just right, the XBox will play a +RW DVD.)

[RJW]

for the record, DVD+R is *still* more expensive, even if you pay the same price for it

What you see is various computer stores, and (more often) various brand names, dropping their profit margins on DVD+R media in order to price match their DVD-R media (alternatively you could also look at it as increasing the DVD-R profit margins). DVD+R media still costs more when purchasing it directly from the manufacturer. In fact, it costs about $0.15 (USD) more per disc then the equivilant DVD-R disc! This is one of the reasons why most manufacturers (it appears everyone except for MCC) actually are in favour of DVD-R (at least from my corraspondences with them).

First it depends on were you live.Remember in Holland we got the favoured +R tax so for media of the same quality +R is cheaper.
It is true DVD-R is more expensive to be made.( because of the protection and the way stampers are made). There are some reasons most brands ask more for DVD+R

1 They don't make it themselves. Most brands just use Ricoh as manufacturer and for that reason they first need to buy there stuff from Ricoh.(Ricoh only makes +R. Compareing there prices to -R media of Ritek that's comming out of the same factory isn't fair since +R has higher
quality controle rules and ricoh media is of better quality. How about ritek +R and -R then well Ritek -R disc's are allmost completely based on own technology while +R isn't. Also there is the difference in quality controle.

2 Anyone can make -R but for +R the media has to be of some quality.
(The reason why most crappy taiwanese manufacturers choose -r)
More quality controle means higher prices.

3 More competition means lower prices. More people make -R and so there is more competition.

4 Higher demands for -R media. (However +R is closing in fast. )

Now MCC is the only manufacturer that has all technology in house for both formats and use the same quality controle for both formats.
+R might be a bit more expensive on the licenscing side however this difference can be put away against the more expensive -R stampers and the protection put on each -R disc. So if all companies would have supported both formats from the begining then the difference wouldn't be there.

By the way a lot of manufacturers are working on dye's for 16x. For these speeds they will have to switch to +R unless Pioneer found a mirracle. Or some other -R supporter releases a drive without carreing about quality.

[dodecahedron]

RJW, can you explain a couple of points mentioned in your last post?

1. why are stampers for -R more expensive?
2. what is the "protection" you mention that is "put" (?) or each -R disc?

[RJW]

I will try to explain it. But my English is a little bit bad I think.

DVD-R not for authoring has the content protection on the blank media. Each blank disc must have the protection burned in befor it is sold.
DVD-R fot authoring doesn't include this protection.
DVD+R has is it in the drive itself.
Since each normal (content protected) DVD-Rdisc has a own nummer so each disc has to be burned. They can't press it.

About the stampers. I will come back on this in a few days.
(The new proces from MCC will solve the problem and will probally make better stampers)

[dodecahedron]

ok but what is this "protection" ? is it some sort of serial number burned onto the disc in the manufacturing plant ?

[RJW]

yes your exactly hit the jackpot. It is some sort of serial number which is burned on each disc at the manufactureing site.

[dodecahedron]

OK and i gather from your words that DVD+R doesn't have this.
but what do you mean by "DVD+R has is it in the drive itself" ?
is the DVD+R(W) drive burning a serial number onto the disc at every burn? how can it give a unique number to each disc?
unless of course this number can be mapped directly to the drive the wrote the disc! that's bad!
do you have details about this? i've never heard of it.

[RJW]

No it's a different system for +R if I am right. I will look up the complete detailed information as soon as I got time for it but it might take some time.

[RJW]

About the stamper. (Based on C't 22 article about DVD manufactureing)

DVD-R Land-Pre-Pits have to be burned with a second laser.
(The first laser burns just like +R media the groove which is used as a guide for the data when being burned.) This second laser has to be synchronized very precise with first laser.
Now Mitsubishi(R) Kagaku Mediahas developped a new technique.
The Prepits are replaced by a small curving in the groove walls (Shifted LPP's). This technique makes it possible to make dvd-r stampers with one laser. Now since the technique doesn't require the very precise synchronizing the stampers are much easier to be made.
This means lower stamper costs. And lower stamper costs can be used to swap stampers earlier. Normal stamper use means that the stamper has to be replaced after 300.000 disc's. However most cheaper manufacturers just make more disc's with one stamper.


DVD-R /DVD+R protection.
About DVD-R
The protection burned is the so called CSS-copy protection.

About DVD+R
If I am right it has something to with reading the protection and burning something not back on the back-up. So there's not a id intersetted by the burner on each disc.

[dodecahedron]

i had thought that CSS was the name of the scrambling/encrypting /copy protection technology used on DVD-Video (pressed!) discs. not the serial number you said was burned onto DVD-R(W) media in the manufacturing plant.

about the DVD+R it's still not clear.

DVD-R not for authoring has the content protection on the blank media. Each blank disc must have the protection burned in befor it is sold.
DVD-R fot authoring doesn't include this protection.
DVD+R has is it in the drive itself.
Since each normal (content protected) DVD-Rdisc has a own nummer so each disc has to be burned. They can't press it.

from your words i understood that for DVD+R there's also some kind of code/number burned (?) onto the disc, but by the drive and not in the manufacturing plant. maybe i got it wrong?

If I am right it has something to with reading the protection and burning something not back on the back-up. So there's not a id intersetted by the burner on each disc.

this seems to mean the the DVD+R drive knows not to burn some particular data???

as for the new Mitsubishi technology, that's good news, maybe it will help to raise the average quality of DVD-R media.

[RJW]

Taken from C't 25 2-12-2002. The one number in which C't really started there DVD research.

The bigest cost factor for DVD-R (non authoring)
Is the copy protection which has to be burned on each disc individually.
This ring is burnt at the place were on movie dvd's normally the
CSS-Code is placed(There is were the confusion is comming from).
The ring should protect 1:1 copies
Theoretically it could be stamper pressed however some parteners (Better might be to say Hollywoods-movie industrie) of the DVD-forums do not want that. They want the prerecording option which gives each dvd a individual number.
DVD-RW uses a pressed version.
-
From DVD+R they only mention the protection is in the firmware.
-
Another thing people form C't and Audiodev think that -R is 25-30% cheaper to make as dvd+R based on protection and stamper.

- Another source I don't know were I got the copies from. But these state that DVD+R burns just the protection code which is the same for all dvd+R burners and which is burned on each disc as the same code. For this reason they think that it could be cracked quite easy. I will check were this info is comming from as soon as I have more time.
[/code]

[dodecahedron]

OK as far as -R goes, things are clearer.
it's strange, though, that for -R they have the pre-recorded number for each disc, and for -RW pressed (not inidividual for each disc).
also, it's strange that you mention "partners (Better might be to say Hollywoods-movie industrie) of the DVD-forums" since the Hollywood industry is stronged tied to the + camp (Sony!).

as for +: "From DVD+R they only mention the protection is in the firmware."
still not very clear.

BTW wanted to thank you RJW for your extremely interesting and informative posts (not this topic only).

[RJW]

The reason why I said partners was that The hollywood film industry is a partner of the DVD-forum from the beging.
And with Hollywood I do mean the big studio's.

Now in the +R Alliance I don't think the big studio's have a seat. Still there is Sony. At least the name of the Hollywood studio's is not as easy to connect as -R.

For +R I will check some very good sources. Since my documentation seems to be limited on that one.