Ct' 22 -2003 German version DVD-/+R(W) test /K-probe info

[RJW]

Ct' tested media again.
Here are the most important points:

K-probe (This is a quite free rought translation of the part)
notes from me are underlined
Most important Parameter for quality testing is the rawdataerror (PI-sum 8 ) which is measured befor the errorcorrection of the reader takes action.
Errors that remain after the first error correction are named Parity Inner Failures (PIF) note: in K-probe PIF = PO and POF is not there
Errors after the second correction layer are Parity Outer Failures (POF)
A POF can be detected as data failure or a Blockarrtifect in a movie.
Higher scores for PI8 and PIF gives a higher change for POF.
The calibrated measuremnts of Audiodev were compared to the results of a Lite ON 401S which used the freeware tool K-probe from Karr Wang.
In different forums on the internet there can be results found made by this tool as private recordable test. 66% of the tested media showed PI8 sums of the same order of greatness. 33% Showed great differences.
TO name a few on one disc K-probe found a PI8 sum of 826 which showed on the calibrated analyzer of Audiodev a sum of 68. It can also got the other way arround. K-probe showed a PI8 sum of 97 for a disc that showed 281 as a PI8 sum on Audiodev's analyzer.
K-probe can hardly be used to check the burning quality
Not only the error rate is important for compatability on different players but also important is the Highfrequent Signal (HF-Signal), which created dureing the burn proces. The quality of this signal has to be good to have no problems with replaying. Is the signal to weak or errorness then it cannot be correct digitalized by the player and the errorrate will rise.
The DC-jitter measures the procental difference of the lenghtdifferences of the burned marks against a known Signaltimesraster. If the DC-jitter is above 9,5% then the length of the pits might be wrong detected by the drive and the error rate rises again. Also important in this case is how good the the signaltime of the marks is. There may not be great differences between the shortest signal time (3T (1T=38ns)) and the longest signaltime 14T(I3/I14) This is the assymmetry the ASYM max and min values may not show great differences between each other.

Fooling running OPC (Optimal Power Controle)
What these guys do with rewrtiabeles is use a Plextor 708 and rewrite them the following way called Cascade torture: First write is 400 mb. Next write is 800 mb and so on up to 10 rewrites which is the first time a DVD writable is completely written.
Now because the running OPC needs to correct the 10 different parts which all are written a different number of times the disc will turn out quite bad if Running Optimal Power Controle fails. Infact this test shows how good Plextor and the COmpanny who made the disc worked together.

Here we go update time.


Interesting facts:

Sony DRU 510 shows some weird behaviour when burning it looks like the data in the firmware doesn't match the disc most times.

Plextor 708 has problems in the begining with Ricoh media at 8x. The part burned at 6x is burned bad. This looks of a incorrect match in media and firmware data.

LG GSA 4040 - If the media is not recommended then it will not burn at 4x is the experience of C't this decision ever turns out sometimes quite wise (Mitsui/MAM-E)

Some disc's actually seem to get 1664 PI8 error sum which is the maximum.

Princo and Longsten have a very bad quality controle.
Princo has great differences in Push Pull signal - which indicates stampers are to long used.
Longsten showed visible airbubbels
Lead Data - Showed bad mastering qualities. The Push Pull signal was to bad which caused problems in the data signal which created higher jitter values.

Hacked firmwares which we see on websites which will let people write allmost any disc at 4x are not a recomendation when it comes to burning quality. A drive manufacturer might have very good reasons to rate some speeds low on there burner.


Test results.


DVD+RW 4x
A = Ricoh MP5240A(1.05)
B = Sony DRU 510A(1.0C)
C = Plextor (Cascade Terror Cascade results after 10 rewrites. This condition can not be compared to the A/B !!! The cascadeing effect is really problematic for writing quality on Rewritable material. )

Error Rate A/B/C
HF signal A/B/C
Tracking

Direct Overwrite Test
Number of overwrites / Error Rate

PHILIPS - PHILIPS DVD+RW 4x
E ++/0/0
H +/--/--
T 0
DOW 1000/1248

Ricoh - Ricoh DVD+RW 4x
E --/++/--
H 0/--/--
T +
DOW 100/1467

TDK - Ricoh DVD+RW 4x
E ++/++/--
H 0/-/--
T +
DOW 764/39

Ridata(A brand of Ritek) DVD+RW
E-/++/--
H--/-/--
T-
DOW 1000/1248

DVD+R
A NEC ND-1300A (1.06)(NEC)
B Plextor 708A(1.01) 4x
C Plextor 708A(1.01) 8x

DVD+R
Plextor DVD+R 4x/ Taiyo Yuden (YUDEN000T01)
E ++/++/+(disc is slowed down by burner time is 12:04 min)
H ++/++/0
T ++

Fuji DVD+R 4x/Ricoh (Ricoh JPNR01)
E ++/++/--
H +/++/-
T 0

Verbatim DVD+R 4x/ Mitsubishi MCC
E +/++/+
H o/++/-
T +

DVD-RW 2x
A = Pioneer DVR-A05 (1.33)
B= LG GSA 4040B (A104)
C= Plextor (Cascade Terror Cascade results after 10 rewrites. This condition can not be compared to the A/B !!! The cascadeing effect is really problematic for writing quality on Rewritable material. )

Maxell DVD-RW 2x/ Mitsubishi MCC01 RW11n9
E +/++/++
H o/o/-
T ++
DOW 1000/305

PrimeON DVD-RW 2x /Ritek RitekW01
E +/++/+
H -/-/-
T -
DOW 408/ Error ?1

Princo DVD-RW 2x / Princo Princo
E--/--/--
H --/--/--
T -
DOW 1000/1599 ?2 indications in the text show that ?1 ?2 the results might have been mixed up.

TDK DVD-RW 2x / TDK502 sakuM3
E ++/+/o
H 0/++/o
T 0

DVD-R will be posted later.

[Ian]

Thanks for the info RJW

[dolphinius_rex]

Now we need to know if UM Doctor Pro II is any good, since K-Probe is unreliable.

[dodecahedron]

Most important Parameter for quality testing is the rawdatafehler (PI-sum which is measured befor the errorcorrection of the reader takes action.

what RJW actually wrote was this:

Most important Parameter for quality testing is the rawdatafehler (PI-sum 8 ) which is measured befor the errorcorrection of the reader takes action.

Ian/Socheat, something needs to be done with this BB-code bug, it is all too prevalent.
maybe change the code for the emoticon ? maybe something like ?

LOL i suggested

Code: Select all

maybe change the code for the emoticon  8)  ? maybe something like :cool: ?

and i see that "cool" actually does this emoticon. just cancel the "8" code.

[RJW]

Now we need to know if UM Doctor Pro II is any good, since K-Probe is unreliable

Don't you get it DVD quality is influenced in a much more complicated way as cd-r media. For that reason UM Docter II will also do no good.
The only option for people at this moment to know if a drive performs good on some media seems to be checking the C't reviews.
Unless someone has acces to a Pulsetec based analyzer. WHich would be very sweet. At least if he would use it to test some media for us over here.

[dolphinius_rex]

hrm...this sucks!

I suppose I'll have to come up with some sort of less percise testing method then. Perhaps I'll soruce out a very picky DVD-ROM and very picky DVD player, and use them as a standard for playing...

grr! Why can't things be easy!?!?

[dodecahedron]

RJW, i can't understand the results.
can you calrify the notation in which you've presented them?

[RJW]

RJW, i can't understand the results.
can you calrify the notation in which you've presented them?

It is from
-- very bad
- bad
o ussable/okay
+ good
++ very good
/ = next
So the scores are like A/B/C
if it scores on HF-signal good on burner A, bad on burner B and very good on burner C then it is stated like
H +/-/++

[OC-Freak]

AGAIN I'm unable to find any info on what speeds the discs is scanned at using K-probe.

If the audiodev tests at 1X, then they should test at 1X with K-probe as well.

Also do these guys know what they are speaking about or do they only pretend to know?

How do they know that K-probe do not show PIF, but instead shows the PO failures as PIF?

I'm no expert in the area but I don't eat everything just because it seems very technical detailed............

[RJW]

The claim of PIF=PO has been given by more source as C't.
Theoretically it matched and in quite some cases results match. (Between 60-70% roughly matches.(Note this is based on more results as C't testdata !. However 30% falling through is to unreliable !)
But offcourse you can believe that PO stands Pefect Output.

About the correct speed.
They did the comparision of Plextor Premium vs Audiodev one of the first things they state clearly that Plextor Premium doesn't support 1x.
In C't 20 they state that error levels depend on drive and on speed.
In the Plextor article they state that for a perfect comparision it needs to be done at the same speed.
But offcourse you could contact them. If it makes you feel any better.
But I'm quite shure that's not the problem based on the things I've seen arround. And even if it does give PIF/POF/PI8 scores back that are good there still remains the fact of the other parameters.

It's very good possible that a disc is bad but shows up very good in K-probe because it doesn't meassure the other parameters.
This last one is based on:
A Raw testing results from different sources ( I have seen quite some info stateing problematic disc's comming true.)
B PC Profesional (german magazine experience)
C C't (They do state it in directly by K-probe not reporting POF and some other parameters)

So go a long if you want. But usseing K-probe is quite useless for DVD's at least at this moment.

For the people still interested in the scores of some DVD-R 4x
The results from Germany for DVD-R 4x

A Pioneer DVR-A05
B LG GSA 4040B (A104)
C Sony Dru 510A (1.0c)

FUJI, Taiyo Yuden TYG01
Error rate ++/0/--
HF-signals ++/-/-
Tracking ++

MAM, MAM (Mitsui/CSI) MCI4XG01
Error rate --/-/-- NOTE: disc is burned on 2x by GSA4040B
HF-signals --/-/o
Tracking -

Prodye, princo PRINCO
Error rate ++/+/-- NOTE: disc is burned on 2x by GSA4040B
HF-signals 0/-/- NOTE:disc is slowed down by Sony burner to 2x
Tracking --

Profesional, Longten Longten001
Error rate -/++/-- NOTE: disc is burned on 2x by GSA4040B
HF-signals o/o/--
Tracking -- * downrated because of airbubbels.

Sony,MCC,MCC 01 RG 20
Error rate --/+/--
HF-signals -/o/o
Tracking +

Sunstar. Lead Data, LEADDA TA01
Error rate o/+/-- NOTE: disc is burned on 2x by GSA4040B
HF-signals --/-/--
Tracking -

If people are interested in more scores then let me know I could post the results of the disc's tested in C't 19 which were burned mostly usseing Pioneer A05/A06 for DVD-r the DVD+R models I don't know right out of my head.

To OC-Freak
It is good to be critical on articles but then do some research befor makeing claims out in the wild of things that might be incorrect !
If you want to talk a long with the people who have the technology and money then allways check en recheck and know that your 100% right befor contacting them. If you can show them that they screwed up, then you might be able to have some influence on the next test or take a look a long in the proces. However if your claims are completely incorrect they will think that your just a stupid person who thinks to know it all. At least that is my experience. Ohyeah and try to contact them as polite as possible, however sometimes screwing that one up isn't that bad as long as your info is 100% right in that case

[OC-Freak]

For sure the results is interesting enough, that is not my point.

I'm not an expert in this area as already mentioned, but I do still ask questions when important details is forgotten or maybe left out (such as the reading speed when scannig with K-probe).

I do not say that I'm right, I'm in fact probably wrong....but until I get that proved I still stand a bit sceptical. No I do not have any technical documents or something like that to back me up on this.......

Is there some e-mail adress or website (where I could read or contact them in English)?

I don't understand German

[RJW]

hrm...this sucks!

I suppose I'll have to come up with some sort of less percise testing method then. Perhaps I'll soruce out a very picky DVD-ROM and very picky DVD player, and use them as a standard for playing...

Sorry to dissapoint you but based On chip test results compatability of burned media and rom drive is also there some drive. Will have problems with one disc and the others could read it perfect while another disc was problematic on another player but worked great on the other ones including the one which had problems with the other disc.
So the ability of media being readable on a drive can still result it being problematic on another.
Don't forget the posting on cdrinfo of the person who had problems with AOD double diamond digital media and his Lite On dvd player.
I've used quite some of these media and never had problems. But I never used it on a Lite On dvdrom. Now Lite On dvdrom are actually quite media tollerant still it shows that some combinations might be problematic of the combination because on factor(Jitter/beta?) which isn't C1/C2 turned out bad.

[jsl]

Is there some e-mail adress or website (where I could read or contact them in English)?

I don't understand German

C't has only a German website, http://www.heise.de/ct/
Old articles can be purchased online @ http://www.heise.de/kiosk/ for example the DVD media test in 19/2003 (€0.60). The measured parameters are explained a bit more detailed in the first DVD media test in 25/2002 (€0.80).
With Babelfish I found the articles understandable and quite interesting despite not knowing a word of German

[RJW]

You might try the following adres for contacting the responsible people at C't.

hag@ctmagazine.de

(If I made it up correct out of the magazines description of how email adresses work.)

Since audiodev is a Swedish companny I do think that you can email C't in English with the question about the speed setting on K-probe.

If unclarities still remain I might contact C't myself.

[OC-Freak]

That email adress did not work

[jsl]

Try with just "hg" instead of "hag" (the author of the articles is "Hartmut Gieselmann"), from the contact page:

E-Mail: Alle E-Mail-Adressen der Redaktionsmitglieder haben die Form „xx@ctmagazin.de“. Setzen Sie statt „xx“ das Kürzel des Adressaten ein. Allgemeine E-Mail-Adresse der Redaktion für Leserzuschriften, auf die keine individuelle Antwort erwartet wird: ct@ct.heise.de.

[dolphinius_rex]

hrm...this sucks!

I suppose I'll have to come up with some sort of less percise testing method then. Perhaps I'll soruce out a very picky DVD-ROM and very picky DVD player, and use them as a standard for playing...

Sorry to dissapoint you but based On chip test results compatability of burned media and rom drive is also there some drive. Will have problems with one disc and the others could read it perfect while another disc was problematic on another player but worked great on the other ones including the one which had problems with the other disc.
So the ability of media being readable on a drive can still result it being problematic on another.
Don't forget the posting on cdrinfo of the person who had problems with AOD double diamond digital media and his Lite On dvd player.
I've used quite some of these media and never had problems. But I never used it on a Lite On dvdrom. Now Lite On dvdrom are actually quite media tollerant still it shows that some combinations might be problematic of the combination because on factor(Jitter/beta?) which isn't C1/C2 turned out bad.

So in essence, what you are saying is that unless I buy some sort of audiodev or similar DVD testing device, I will not have any even remote chance of being able to test DVDs with any reliability, and even if I DID get one of these super expensive devices, there would still likely be several situations where certain ROMs/Players are just too picky to work with a disc, even if it has a good score?

please correct me if I'm wrong!

[OC-Freak]

I found my problem already. It's ctmagazin not ctmagazine.........

[Ian]

I wish we had magazines like Ct' in the US. All the magazines over here are so dumbed down.

[dolphinius_rex]

I wish we had magazines like Ct' in the US. All the magazines over here are so dumbed down.

If you think THAT'S bad, try moving to Canada!

as far as I can tell, my webpage constitutes the ONLY Canadian based CD info news source, either offline or online

[Ian]

Yeah, you probably have hundreds of hockey and curling magazines.

[dolphinius_rex]

Yeah, you probably have hundreds of hockey and curling magazines.

...don't know about curling, but deffinatly hockey!

[RJW]

So in essence, what you are saying is that unless I buy some sort of audiodev or similar DVD testing device, I will not have any even remote chance of being able to test DVDs with any reliability, and even if I DID get one of these super expensive devices, there would still likely be several situations where certain ROMs/Players are just too picky to work with a disc, even if it has a good score?

please correct me if I'm wrong!

So far it looks like you need a profesional analyzer that measures most parameters like jitter, Assymetry and so on to.
Based on all these scores you can make a conclusion if the media is bad or not.

Can a disc slip through ?
Well in this case it depends on more as raw results. Since there are more parameters some interpretation of the (combined) results has to be done.

Now the picky reactions of the players are caused by the reaction on one or more of the parameters being bad. So it will show up as long as you are able to interpretate your data correct.

Also these profesional analyzers are calibrated so the results they give are reliable.

[dolphinius_rex]

Okay, that brings me to my next question....

what's the cheapest analyzer that *works*, and where can I get it. Yes I know it's out of my price range currently, but I may have a few options for funding if I can proove its' worthiness

[RJW]

Your choices are between the one from

Datarius (don't know what it can meassure. So you first need to find out if this thing is able to do the things you want it to do.)

or the one from
Audiodev.(proven technology but very expensive)

You should contact the companies if your really interested in it. They can help you better then I can do.