Dual Layer DVD+R Discs

[Ian]

http://www.dvdrw.com/press/duallayer.htm

http://www.research.philips.com/Informa ... cleId=2821

Thoughts?

[Dartman]

I hope it happens before the movie industry goes nuts and kills it
It figures I jump in with a Sony at full retail early this year and now all these faster, better units are coming out for less money. Might have to do like Veff and dump mine while it's still worth something and upgrade again.
Hopfully they'll be affordable and also the media will be too. Could be the answer to a lot of limitations as of now.

[VEFF]

I hope it happens before the movie industry goes nuts and kills it
It figures I jump in with a Sony at full retail early this year and now all these faster, better units are coming out for less money. Might have to do like Veff and dump mine while it's still worth something and upgrade again.
Hopfully they'll be affordable and also the media will be too. Could be the answer to a lot of limitations as of now.

Yes, if you time the "dumping" right and buy the units as "Hot Deals", it can work extremely well.
I did it with a 1X in Sept 2002 and again with three 4X burners in August 2003. Because I luckily timed it right and got some hot deals on each one, the depreciation was very little.

The key is never to buy retail - e.g. just got a 2nd Plextor PX-708A for a very low price - and to time the sale just right.
Then, if possible, wait for a hot deal to buy the replacements.
Actually my first 708A is the first DVD burner I didn't wait for a Hot Deal for.
That is only because I was without a burner, and had sold my three 4X DVD burners for good prices...

[dolphinius_rex]

The real question is who will come out with the dual format recordable DVD first, Philips or Pioneer?

The next question is, why is philips only making an 8.5GB disc, and not a full sized dual layered disc?

Personally, I'm betting on Pioneer. Not because I am a believe in the DVD-R format, but because I know that they've been working on this technology almost since DVD-R first hit the market. Although I had no idea that they were this close to perfecting it!

Edit: Here's an intersting thought.... What is Pioneer brings out a double sided Dual layer recordable DVD?

in additional grooviness, a dual layered 8cm DVD-R would be nice too!

[burninfool]

I think it's a great idea,no more compressing video!
Hopefully my Optorite DD0203 doesn't die before the dual-layer writers and media come out.

[Dartman]

But that would be compressing video ONLY on family videos and movies we own......

[BurninMan921]

The next question is, why is philips only making an 8.5GB disc, and not a full sized dual layered disc?

That is full size; remember, they use the same capacity measurement as hard drive makers where 1 megabyte = 1,000,000 instead of the correct
1,048,576 bytes. The 4.7GB they advertise is really 4.38GB, the 9GB is really 8.5GB (8.5GB=9,126,805,504 bytes).

It'd be soooo nice if hard drive/DVD makers finally went to the non-misleading 1024 base.

[BurninMan921]

OK, ignore my last post. Doom9 sorta made it sound like they were talking 9GB per disk, but it is going to be 8.5GB, which translates into ~7.9GB. Stupid companies...

Ian: for some reason I couldn't edit my last post...got a message saying "you can only edit your own posts." ??

It let me edit this one, though, and add this note.

[burninfool]

But that would be compressing video ONLY on family videos and movies we own......

But of course,what else would I mean?

[jsl]

The real question is who will come out with the dual format recordable DVD first, Philips or Pioneer?

The next question is, why is philips only making an 8.5GB disc, and not a full sized dual layered disc?

Personally, I'm betting on Pioneer. Not because I am a believe in the DVD-R format, but because I know that they've been working on this technology almost since DVD-R first hit the market. Although I had no idea that they were this close to perfecting it!

Edit: Here's an intersting thought.... What is Pioneer brings out a double sided Dual layer recordable DVD?

in additional grooviness, a dual layered 8cm DVD-R would be nice too!

Check your facts. A pressed dual layer DVD9 is 8.5 GB (7.95 GB) too, http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.3
Then I don't see any official press release from Pioneer. They only leak some numbers to their fan site CDRInfo which has no source (as usual). This happen on the same day as the official press release from DVD+RW Alliance. Coincidence? I don't think so and it looks like a quite desperate act to me. Even if Pioneer succeed with a dual layer DVD-R seeing the obvious field of application will be copying movies will the DVDforum ever approve it?

[dolphinius_rex]

ok, my bad. But why are dual layered discs always referred to as 9.4GB then?

[jsl]

No it's double sided aka DVD10 which is 9.4 GB (8.74 GB), 4.7 GB on each side. If anyone refers to a dual layer disc as 9.4 GB they are simply wrong.

[dolphinius_rex]

well, it looks like I know a lot of people who are wrong then...LOL! Thanks for the clarification!

rather embaressing when you consider the fact that I handle the manufacturing of DVDs for various company promotions....

[dodecahedron]

what i'm curious to know is this:
i've read quite a few times, on this board among other places, that NO WAY there's not going to be recordable dual-layer discs.
so what happened? how did it suddenly become possible?

[dolphinius_rex]

yeah, I'm guilty of that one too....

[cfitz]

i've read quite a few times, on this board among other places, that NO WAY there's not going to be recordable dual-layer discs.
so what happened? how did it suddenly become possible?

Well, it didn't suddenly become possible. They have been working on this for two years, but managed to keep it a good secret. (They have to protect their future plans secret for competitive advantage, after all. ):

Initial investigations were started by Philips Research around 2 years ago at a time when there was general scepticism throughout the optical storage industry that compatible dual-layer DVD recordable would ever be possible.

I'm not part of the optical storage industy, nor an expert in the field, but I admit that I was one of those who said I didn't think it would ever happen. Why? Because there is a lot more complexity involved in making two layers recordable. You have that many more layers to laminate together, you have to provide a semi-reflective layer that will reflect back the signal for reading the top layer and yet still withstand the transmission of high power laser light for recording the buried layer, the extra layers and interactions require much tighter tolerances that make the disc more difficult (read expensive) to manufacture, etc. Add to this the fact that newer, much higher density formats like BluRay are already in production, and I didn't think anyone would even want to venture down the uncertain path of attempting to develop a dual-layer recordable format.

I guess this represents another example of the folly of predicting the future when it comes to march of technology, and I'll have to plead guilty myself on this one. Oh well, I'm not alone:

http://www.ledasoft.com/jokes/messages/204.html
http://www.sysprog.net/quothist.html
http://www.thecommittedsardine.net/info ... ctions.pdf
http://www.silicon.com/news/500009/1/1025245.html

cfitz

[spath]

> The real question is who will come out with the dual format recordable
> DVD first, Philips or Pioneer?
>
> Personally, I'm betting on Pioneer. Not because I am a believe in the
> DVD-R format, but because I know that they've been working on this
> technology almost since DVD-R first hit the market. Although I had no
> idea that they were this close to perfecting it!

Geee, it looks like being wrong is a real passion of yours...

[Ian]

Geee, it looks like being wrong is a real passion of yours...

spath, please read over the forum rules. In particular, rule #7.

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=8914

[Kennyshin]

I'm more interested in how fast dual-layer DVD+R (and DVD-R) writing will be.

[dolphinius_rex]

You know, with a dual layered disc, there is no reason why one layer couldn't be DVD-R and the other DVD+R....that would be COOL!

we could call it the DVD=R a combination of - and + technology

Of course, it'll never happen because of the licensing that would be required.... but it is still a cool idea!

[HyperYagami]

Because there is a lot more complexity involved in making two layers recordable.

yeah even at it is now, I'm still not very hopeful getting the old standalones to play those disc, and they've got enough problem with DVDRs as is already.

[fng]

DVD+RW Alliance Demonstrates Dual-Layer DVD+R, Nearly Doubling the Capacity of Recordable; DVDs Up to 16 Hours of
Video and Up to 8.5 Gigabytes of Data Per Disc

Business Editors/High-Tech Writers
CEATEC

TOKYO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 7, 2003--Dell, HP, Mitsubishi
Chemical/Verbatim, Philips, Ricoh, Sony, Thomson and Yamaha, members of the DVD+RW Alliance, announced the feasibility to make a dual layer DVD+R disc compatible with the dual-layer DVD-ROM standard (DVD9). The dual layer DVD+R disc nearly doubles the storage capacity from 4.7 Gbytes to up to 8.5 Gbytes, while remaining compatible with existing DVD Video players and DVD-ROM drives. Demonstrations of the dual layer DVD+R will be given at the DVD+RW Alliance booth at CEATEC JAPAN 2003, which takes place from 7-11 October in Makuhari Messe, Chiba, Japan.
Final specifications and the format book are expected to be
available this year and recordable media and recorder products that
will use this new dual layer technology are expected in the course of
2004.
Adding an additional storage layer will nearly double the data
storage capacity of a current DVD+R disc. Both layers can be accessed
from the same side of the disc, meaning there is no need to turn over
the disc to benefit from the extra recording capacity. The technology
will allow consumers to record DVD quality video up to 4 hours and up
to 16 hours in VHS video quality on a single dual layer DVD+R disc and
will enable PC users of dual layer DVD+R discs to enjoy increased
storage capacity of up to 8.5 Gbytes.
An aggressive feature and performance roadmap has been developed
for the DVD+R/+RW format, and compatibility with the installed base of
DVD Video players and DVD-ROM drives is key component to this roadmap. Dual layer recording is yet another accomplishment of format strategy designed to bring compatible, simple and functional DVD recording to the consumers.
The companies have been consistent leaders in bringing new DVD
recording technologies to consumers. The announcement of dual layer
capability comes on the heels of their July 2003 announcement of DVD+R
8x.

[MonteLDS]

i recall a user on here once saying that DVD-9 Will NEVER happen. kind of funny that it is almost here.. Well whatever happens I want to know burning speed for DVD-9 then cost for the new burners which i would hope burn DVD 4.7

i hate this new technology crap. it cost too much

[VEFF]

i recall a user on here once saying that DVD-9 Will NEVER happen. kind of funny that it is almost here.. Well whatever happens I want to know burning speed for DVD-9 then cost for the new burners which i would hope burn DVD 4.7

i hate this new technology crap. it cost too much

The thing is, unless I am mistaken, that DVD-9 is "9.4 GB" (really more like 8.74 true GB), which is still a little more than the 8.5 GB these dual DVD recordable discs can hold.

So they will be dual layer DVD recordables, but not quite DVD-9...

[jsl]

The thing is, unless I am mistaken, that DVD-9 is "9.4 GB" (really more like 8.74 true GB), which is still a little more than the 8.5 GB these dual DVD recordable discs can hold.

So they will be dual layer DVD recordables, but not quite DVD-9...

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.3

DVD-9 (12 cm, SS/DL) 7.95 gig (8.54 BB), about 4 hours
DVD-10 (12 cm, DS/SL) 8.74 gig (9.40 BB), about 4.5 hours