how do you tell which media you have?

[MediumRare]

I got jumped on a while ago for not mentioning this site earlier (see http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9715), so for now I'll err in repitition rather than omission.

jump jump jump
it was me!

and it was actually here: http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 6637#56637

I knew you'd jump on that lead! (my good deed for the day).

G

[dodecahedron]

yeah!

just discovered Fuji media here in Israel (first time ever).
it's the same Fuji Pio2001, Han and you MediumRare reported sold in France, Slovenia and Germany.
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 2691#62691
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 2783#62783
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 4867#54867

quite a reasonable price (by Israeli standards) too!
(3.70 NIS = $0.82 for a single in jewel-case for 40x)

this is the 40x media:

ATIP: 97m 26s 45f
Disc Manufacturer: FUJI Photo Film Co., Ltd.
Reflective layer: Dye (Short strategy; e.g. Phthalocyanine)
Media type: CD-Recordable
Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown
nominal Capacity: 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f / LBA: 359849)

http://www.instantinfo.de/detailcdr_e.php?ID=1429



too bad...no Taiyo Yuden
according to Pio2001 theyre not very good

also discovered some Fuji, made in Japan, that is NOT Taiyo Yuden!!!
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10669

[Han]

For now I'm very satisfied with FujiFilm discs made in Germany, no errors whatsoever. They are very well balanced so they don't vibrate in my Toshiba DVD drive while reading at top speed (48x). I burn them at 8x with my trusty old TEAC CD-R58S.

[dodecahedron]

OK thanks for the input, have'nt seen any comments about Fuji manufactured (not branded) media except Pio2001's.

i seem to recall also MediumRare made some comments but can't find them with the search...

anyway this media is priced rather reasonably here so it's good news (i don't like buying cheap no-name c#@pola)

[MediumRare]

i seem to recall also MediumRare made some comments but can't find them with the search...

I haven't tried these myself, although they are reasonably priced here too. I just kept mentioning them at every possible occasion to emphasize that not all Fuji's are TY, especially for those of us not in North America.

G

[CDRnovice]

I have a 52MAXX burner and recently bought a spindle of 50 Memorex 48x CD-R discs. The spindle packaging and its "Made in Taiwan" label seem to indicate the manufacturer is CMC. But the Nero CDSpeed utility reports the following:

Manufacturer: Prodisc
Recording Layer: Dye Type 9: Short Strategy (Phthalocyanine)

I plan to burn audio CD-Rs which I hope to have for a decade or more. I'd like the discs to be reliable and high-quality and if a better technology comes along in a decade, I plan to transfer this music to the new technology.

Is Prodisc a high-quality manufacturer? This thread seems to indicate that the quality range of CD-R manufacturers is (from highest to lowest): Mitsui, TY, Ritek, and CMC. Is Prodisc roughly the same quality as CMC? Should I instead use discs from Mitsui or TY? What do I risk by using Prodisc? Is Prodisc good enough for my purposes?

I also have some older (year 1996) gold Memorex 74 min CD-R discs with a blue recording surface which the Nero CDSpeed utility reports as:

Manufacturer: Ritek
Recording Layer: Dye Type 0: Long Strategy (Cyanine, AZO)

Burns at 40x with these Riteks failed. Then I tried 24x ... the burn succeeded but the music came out scratchy (as if I were playing an old beat-up LP!). Should I use the lowest possible recording speed for my burner (4x)? Are these Ritek discs usable?

Finally, what is the significance of the "Recording Layer" information and what kind of Recording Layer should I use?

[cfitz]

I've not personally used Prodisc media, but they have a reputation of being good quality. From what I have seen and read I think they would probably fit below Taiyo Yuden, around where the Ritek sits (maybe better than Ritek, maybe worse - both are decent). By the way, I have personally used the Mitsui silver media, and haven't been greatly thrilled with their initial burn quality. Taiyo Yuden does better on my drives. Even my Ritek discs show better initial burn quality. I often get C2 errors on freshly burned Mitsui silver 80-minute discs.

This post has a little more information about the materials from which CD-R's are made:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 2318#42318

As for those 1996 discs, they may just be too old to burn properly. Although CD-R's, if properly cared for, can have a long lifetime after being burned, people have reported problems with burning old media, and it is generally recommended to burn discs before they reach the age of 5 years. To be conservative, you should probably plan on burning your discs within a year or two after purchase. And your discs are not only old, but they were made when CD-R technology was still relatively young, untested, and imperfect (I exaggerate a bit for effect). I recommend ditching those discs.

By the way, do you have SMART-BURN enabled? You should, by default, but it is worth checking.

cfitz

[CDRnovice]

Thanks, cfitz. The link you provided says AZO (on my old Memorex gold/blue discs) is good for slow speeds, 16x max, so I'll burn below that speed. They're Ritek discs and you mentioned that Ritek is decent so I think I'm safe there.

As for my new spindle of Memorex (Prodisc) 48x discs, the link that you referenced said that Phthalocyanine (used on my Prodisc discs) should last for 200 years, theoretically, if good care is taken of the discs. I've burned one of those Prodisc discs and it works on several different CD players. I used Nero to burn it and Nero said the burn was successful. Therefore, I assume there are no errors on that disc. Is that a safe assumption?

Just wondering, is there a significant difference between TY and Ritek/Prodisc discs? In other words, since I already have Prodisc discs, is there any real need for me to forget the Prodisc discs and buy some new TY discs? Should all three of those brands last for a couple of decades? I'm glad you said Prodisc is about equal to Ritek quality-wise ... it seems to be much better than CMC, according to what other contributors have said, and I initially thought I had CMC discs based on the packaging.

I did notice that most contributors mention that their discs are "Long Strategy." My Prodisc discs are "Short Strategy (Phthalocyanine)". What is a short strategy in reference to burning CD-Rs? Is it better or worse than "Long Strategy"?

[dolphinius_rex]

Regarding lifespan: as cfitz said, don't wait past 5 years to burn a CD-R. THe lifespan of a burned CD-R is usually longer then the lifespan of an unburned one, however there have been exceptions. So far I have not seen any media that can survive 200 years.... ok, CD technology hasn't been around that long, I know. What I am saying is, according to some tests done recently (some of which have been my own, and some of which have not) 10-15 years looks like it might be the best you could expect, under ideal conditions, with very good quality media. Personally, I haven't had a CD-R survive past 7 or 8 years

as for the quality of Prodisc and Ritek? Prodisc is generally good, but not great, though their CD-RWs can REALLY suck! The latest 48x Prodisc media appears to have some problems, and there is at least 1 bad batch out their with possible physical defects.

Ritek media used to be incredibly poor quality! but they changed that roughly around the time they started producing 24x and faster discs. Their newer 40x and 48x media is absolutly awesome! though it still falls beneath the average Taiyo Yuden/Mitsubishi Chemicals scores.

I have a handful of Ritek and Prodisc CD-Rs tested on my webpage if you want to check them out:
www.digitaldolphin.netfirms.com (look in the reviews section )

[CDRnovice]

cfitz, here a few comments I let out of my previous message (I'm not sure how to edit the messages I've already posted).

I'll take your advice and get rid of my old (year 1996) blank CD-R discs.

I don't know if I'm using SMART-BURN when I burn my discs with Nero - how can I check this? I couldn't find it under the Preferences tab or the Burn dialog box.

Finally, you mentioned C2 errors. I have no idea what that is. Can such errors exist after you've successfully burned your CD-R? I've successfully burned a few discs but how can I be sure that they're error-free? Does Nero allow you to verify this, post-burn?

Thanks.

[cfitz]

Actually, your old discs use cyanine dye. CD Speed (and other testing programs) don't distinguish between cyanine and AZO. Still, if you use those discs at all you will probably need to burn them slowly. Again, I recommend just dumping them. How many do you have? When you can get a new spindle of 50 for $3-5 on special, "economizing" by using 5-year old discs seems like a classic case of penny wise, pound foolish.

The 200-year lifetime, of course, is just an estimate based on accelerated aging tests (claimed by Mitsui in the past for some of their phthalocyanine media), and it wouldn't be surprising if there was some marketing hype in it. Your mileage will vary.

A successful burn on Nero is necessary but not sufficient to guarantee no errors on your disc. You can use Nero's "verify written data" option to compare the files on the CD-R you just burned exactly match the files on your hard drive. The program CDCheck can do she same and more. CD Speed has scan disc and quality check tests that will check for lower-level errors that are normally corrected on reading so that you wouldn't know they are there. And since your Memorex drive is actually made by LiteOn, you can use the nice KProbe tool to check the quality of your burns even more thoroughly:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10234

Long strategy and short strategy have nothing to do with disc quality. Neither is better than the other. They are just different methods the drives use to burn different dye types.

You can check to see that SMART-BURN is enabled in Nero by selecting "Recorder"->"Choose Recorder...", then pressing the "Options>>" button at the bottom of the dialog box.

Here is some reading material about CD-R errors and burning quality:

http://www.roxio.com/en/support/cdr/cderrors.html
http://www.cdpage.com/dstuff/BobDana296.html#3
http://www.mscience.com/faq13.html
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 6820#46820
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=8194
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php ... adid=61943

cfitz

[CDRnovice]

To dolphinius_rex: Your CD-R discs don't survive past 7-8 years? Do they then fail to play music? Should we expect today's new discs to last longer? Seems we can't know for sure. Being new to CD-Rs, I have to say cassettes last much longer. You also said Prodisc is good, not great, though their CD-RW's can suck. Uh-oh ... I just backed up 1/2 Gig of my hard drive with a Memorex CD-RW disc (Nero CDSpeed reports the manufacturer is "Infodisc" and KProbe reports the disc manufacturer is "Vivastar AG"). I'm concerned because I've read other bad reviews of Prodisc media ... I've seen experts rate Prodisc discs anywhere from Sucks to Very Bad to Good. I'm thinking of abandoning my Memorex (Prodisc/Infodisc) discs and instead using Taiyo Yuden, Mitsui, or Mitsubishi. The trick will be determining which brand names are TY, Mitsui, and Mitsubishi. I guess I should back up my hard drive with a brand other than Memorex (Infodisc) CD-RW. Any CD-RW manufacturer recommendations?

To cfitz: Yes, you're right, I plan to take your advice and discard my seven year-old blank Memorex CD-R discs. I just downloaded KProbe ... thanks. I have three types of discs: blank Memorex (Ritek) gold 74 min. CD-Rs (1996); a 50-pack of Memorex (Prodisc) 80 min./48x CD-Rs (2002); and a Memorex (Infodisc) 80 min. Ultra-Speed 16x-24x CD-RW disc (2002) which I use as a hard drive backup disc. I tried out KProbe's Write Strategy test on one of my old gold discs on which I recorded some music (music came out very scratchy). The test seemed to take forever (how long does a full C1C2/PIPO test take?) ... I stopped it after it was 1% complete, according to the little horizontal bar chart indicator. Here are the C1C2/PIPO results after 1% test complete:

Error Max Total Average
C1: 3180 89751 3094.862
C2: 612 12052 415.586

I read your linked articles and learned that C1 is a small error and C2 is a large one. My test results seem bad after 1% complete. What is PIPO and should I care about it? Nero CDSpeed said that my gold disc is manufactured by Ritek but KProbe said the same disc is manufactured by "CDA Datentrager Albrechts GmbH". Which should I believe? The test, when I stopped it (I assume the 1% on the horizontal bar meant 1% test complete) also displayed a line which said: "Current MSF 00:57:18". What's that? Will a KProbe test have any negative effects on recorded CD-R or CD-RW discs? Finally, you mentioned Nero Smart-Burn ... I do have that as the default option.

Until now, I thought CD-R technology is the same as CD technology. How long will, say, a Beatles CD from Circuit City last? Given the current state of CD-R technology and my audio needs, I think it's best that I upgrade to TY, Mitsui or Mitsubishi discs. By the way, is it better to burn a 48x disc at 48x or 16x or 1x? And should I go with the latest 48x or 52x media or are 32x and 40x more reliable? Still somewhat confused ...

Thanks, dolphinius_rex and cfits, for your advice.

[dolphinius_rex]

Wow! lot's of GOOD questions there! I hope I can answer some of them for you

My discs that have failed after 7-8 years have mixed results. Some no longer can do ANYTHING, which mean most drives will spit them out at first sight, and some are just REALLY scratchy. However, since most of my CD-Rs have data on them, they are effectively usless to me either way. When I say a disc is dead, it usually means an average C2 error rate of thousands.

As for the lifespan of newer CD-Rs, well, that's really impossible to say, since they haven't been around long enough for me to do a real life age test. However, I would recommend periodically testing the CD-R/Ws that are important to you, to see how they are doing quality wise. You don't have to test them every week or even every month though, just every once and a while.

Copy the data off of that Memorex 16x-24x CD-RW *RIGHT NOW* if you value whatever data you have backed up on it. I have not heard even one report of a person having the disc work properly for them. Most people I have talked/messaged with who purchased the discs, have demanded replacements, and eventually refunds. And the disc is made by Infodisc, K-Probe is wrong. K-Probe's manufacturer identification ability is still a work in process, so take the info with a grain of salt for now

I stand behind Prodisc CD-Rs personally. Like I said, they aren't great, but they ARE good. Though their latest batch has left a little to be desired from what I've been told. Generally Prodisc is considered to be one of the safer media types.

I would suggest avoiding Memorex media altogether, since memorex buys media from MANY different manufacturers, and you never know which one you will end up purchasing. Sometimes it could be T.Y. sometimes it could be infodisc!

As for CD-RW recommendations, go for Verbatim Datalife Plus CD-RWs. They are usually made by Mitsubishi Chemicals, and are considered to be one of the (if not THE) best CD-RWs in the world!

I'm not 100% sure who made the gold memorex CD-Rs you speak of. I've seen gold memorex CD-Rs made by Infodisc, DST, and CMC, but not Ritek... could you give me the ATIP please? I could give you a better answer with that.

Regarding your Memorex 48x Prodisc CD-Rs, I'd be more then happy to take those off your hands if you don't want them anymore!

and finally, regarding CD technology versus CD-R technology. They are TOTALLY different. If you remember, when Compact Audio Discs first became available, most of them rotted within a year or so. This prompted some MAJOR improvments in the manufacturing process, and generally speaking it isn't an issue anymore, assuming you take good care of your CDs. Humidity and enviroment are major issues of course, but there have been no major outbreaks of CD rot lately amongst the pre-mastered audio discs...at least not that *I* know of. Remember, CD-Rs are good for backing things up because they are disposable. Pre-mastered CDs are made to last the test of time, but are still subject to the everyday wear and tear of scratches and dust.

I hope that helps you out!

[cfitz]

Wow! I'm glad I have dolphinius_rex giving me tag team help.

First, I agree completely with the emphatic advice to throw away that Memorex CD-RW as fast as you can (after hopefully retrieving any data you stored on it but not anywhere else) and replace it with a Verbatim DataLife Plus CD-RW disc. Read here for more:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10782

In general CD-RW media are not as reliable as CD-R, so I like to use them only for temporary storage and transfer of data that I have safely stored away elsewhere as well.

A full C1/C2 test should take only as long as it takes to read the disc at the speed you have selected. For 48x reading, that would be 2.5~3 minutes. If your test is getting stuck, it probably means that the disc has many unreadable sectors. The error totals you report are very high for such a small portion of the disc. A good disc can easily have C1 max < 10 and C1 avg < 1, with no C2 at all. So you have a really bad disc there. Slowing down the testing/reading speed might help some, but even if it does I would still say that disc is no good at all.

PI/PO test is for DVD's, not CD's.

Running KProbe's Write Strategy test does not harm or alter your disc in any way. Despite the name, what it is directly testing is the readability of the disc. The only thing it does is read your disc. The name "Write Strategy" may appear to be a bit of a misnomer, but I believe it comes from the history of the tool. It was developed/is being developed by a LiteOn engineer who used/is using it to evaluate the effects of different CD-R writing strategies on disc readability.

As dolphinius_rex stated, KProbe and CD Media Info are still having disc identification bugs wrung out of them, so trust SMARTBURN.exe or CD Speed more for now.

In general it is best to use the newest media, and burn it at or near it is rated speed. Burning high speed media in a high speed drive at slow speeds ( ~24x or less ) has been known to give worse quality than burning at designed speeds. Stick with what the designers intended, and use KProbe to check for yourself what media performs best at what speeds in your drive.

cfitz
is unreadable.

[CDRnovice]

Thanks for the great responses. I'll consider using Verbatim CD-RW for hard drive backups but maybe CD-R is better for that (since it was mentioned CD-R is more reliable than CD-RW). CD-RW works with Mount Ranier/InCD -- does CD-R provide the same capability? My concern is that CD-RW is not reliable enough for important backups ... maybe I should use an alternative backup method. As for my favorite audio tracks, it sounds like magnetic hard drive is the safest permanent storage medium.

Music store CDs (e.g., from Sony) are meant to stand the test of time but I had hoped CD-R/W discs were made the same way. Maybe it just boils down to "you get what you pay for" ... i.e., Sony's financial wherewithal to pay multi-millions for the highest-quality materials, audio CD mastering equipment, and production process versus my little $80 Memorex 52x24x52x burner and $4 (after rebate) 50-pack of Prodisc discs.

For audio CD-Rs, it's ok to have some C1s (these errors are corrected on playback) but C2s are unacceptable, right? Does a gradual build-up of C1/C2 errors cause an audio CD-R to become unusable 7-8 years later? When KProbe says "avg. C1 error rate" is 10 or 100, what does that mean? ... average for what fraction of the disc?

What should one expect the difference to be, in terms of longevity and errors, between newly-burned audio CD-Rs from Taiyo Yuden versus Prodisc? Or, is this question unanswerable and we're all gambling no matter which brand we buy?

Here are the results of my two KProbe tests:

Test #1: Memorex (Infodisc) Ultra-Speed 16x-24x CD-RW

Test 100% complete.

--- Max Total Avg
C1 1032 700968 282.648
C2 0045 001626 000.656

Test #2: Memorex (Prodisc) 80 min 700 mb 48x CD-R

Test automatically suspends at 5% complete (Current MSF 04:07:36). Tried re-running test with same result ... by the way, the first song track burned on that CD-R is 4:59 in duration. Strange.

--- Max Total Avg
C1 15 1962 12.11
C2 00 0000 00.00

The first result indicates my Infodisc CD-RW disc is bad. The CD-R test, though, looks like it failed. Shouldn't the LiteOn KProbe utility work properly with my Memorex burner and CD-R? After the test halts at 5% complete, there's a long delay and the graph is then redrawn (minus any test data) with the following along the x-axis: "00:04:04 ... 5178:30:23" (??). I omitted the numbers (times) in between but look at the last number on the x-axis. Aargh.

Thanks again for your help!

[CDRecorder]

It is okay for there to be some C1 errors on discs; all discs have them. The average rate for C1 or C2 errors is over the whole disk, AFAIK.

A disc will probably work if it has a lot of C1 errors or even some C2 errors, but the disc probably won't last as long, and it may not work as well. I personally don't consider a burn with any C2 errors a good burn.

I have never used Prodisc media, but TY (Taiyo Yuden) media will probably last longer and have fewer errors.

Yes, I think KProbe should work with your Memorex burner. I don't think the Memorex firmware should be a problem, but you never know...

I hope that helped!

[CDRnovice]

Thanks for responding. But what does "AFAIK" mean?
There is a Total and an Average of errors. From my CD-R test results, I calculate:

700968 Total C1 Errors / 282.648 Average C1 Errors = 2480

The average is apparently for each "segment" of the disc and there are 2480 of those segments. But what does this segment represent? Is the concept similar to a hard drive sector?

Regarding my CD-R test that failed, I used a Memorex 52x24x52x burner, Memorex 48x CD-R, and KProbe (from LiteOn, which is supposed to be the manufacturer of my Memorex burner). So it's all in the Memorex family. Therefore, I don't understand why the test freezes at 5% on my audio CD-R which plays fine in various CD music players. I also don't understand the point you made about "Memorex firmware" possibly being the problem. I'm confused.

[cfitz]

AFAIK = as far as I know

The average is over the entire disc and is conceptually calculated as:

avg = total errors / length of disc measured in seconds

KProbe, at higher testing speeds, can't sample every single sector on the CD, so the above calculation won't work out exactly on older versions of KProbe (the reported total is too low, but the reported average is correct). The latest version corrects this so that the reported numbers are consisten with the above calculation. Please read through the whole KProbe thread. All of this is explained there.

As for your Memorex disc, did you burn it DAO and finalize it?

LiteOnGuy's point about the Memorex firmware was just that you don't need to worry about using a Memorex drive with KProbe. It will work. He was answering your eariler concern about your Memorex drive's compatibility with KProbe's.

cfitz

[CDRecorder]

I'm sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant "as far as I know" when I wrote AFAIK. Thanks for clarifying that, Cfitz.

[CDRnovice]

Yes, cfitz, I did burn the Memorex CD-R disc DAO and finalize it. You're right about what LiteOnGuy said regarding firmware - my mistake. I'm still baffled why I can't run a complete KProbe test on my CD-R disc. It should work, AFAIK.

[cfitz]

Any other details you can provide? It is possible you have run into a bug in KProbe. The development of KProbe is ongoing. What version are you using, OS, drivers, etc? Also, try some other audio discs burned on other media, and try that same media burned with data. See if you can pinpoint what the critical difference is.

By the way, please don't post the same question multiple times (regarding your post in the media compatibility thread.

cfitz

[CDRnovice]

KProbe 1.10
Win98
drivers? no idea

Thanks for the advice and I'll burn another CD-R as a test to see if the same thing happens.

Sorry about the multiple posts.

[motocoke]

You're welcome.

One other thing, the Ritek cake boxes are usually made of harder plastic than the CMC cake boxes. You can tell the harder plastic by looking at the recycling code on the top of the spindle. The softer plastic is represented by:

. /\
/ 5 \
-----
PP

And the harder plastic is represented by:

. /\
/ 6 \
-----
PS

I have the TDK Ritek and the hard plastic box indeed says

. /\
/ 6 \
-----
PS

but another 50pcs spindle of retail packed RiData 40x with softer plastic case has this :

. /\
/ 5 \
-----
PP

So it seems to vary.....

[TheWizard]

That's why I said Ritek spindles are usually hard plastic. It's easy to spot a Ritek spindle whether it is made out of hard or soft plastic. They have a very distinct design...refer to the pictures above and my lame attempt at trying to describe the rounded top edge as opposed to a CMC spindle's sharp top edge.

[motocoke]

That's why I said Ritek spindles are usually hard plastic. It's easy to spot a Ritek spindle whether it is made out of hard or soft plastic. They have a very distinct design...refer to the pictures above and my lame attempt at trying to describe the rounded top edge as opposed to a CMC spindle's sharp top edge.

Oh yeah. Sorry, I posted that comment at 2:30 am...

But I'm beginning to spot the same Ritek spindle rounded topped cases for Imation discs too. I wonder if they are Riteks. I haven't hear of Ritek making discs for Imation.