Official K-Probe Discussion (Tool for Scanning C1C2/PIPO)

by **cfitz** on Wed May 07, 2003 7:52 pm

<edit>This post also does not correctly answer your question and also contains a link to some material that is interesting in its own right. For the actual answer to your question, please skip forward one more post to here. </edit>

Here we go, this is the other link I was looking for:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php ... post420106

Before you question why Media Sciences and Clover (the original source of BoSkin's information - see the second link at the bottom of his post) seem to be in disagreement, note that the letter grades Clover details are their own interpretations. They claim that their definitions "reflect generally accepted practice in the industry", but also admit that their "criteria are somewhat arbitrary".

I believe the "+" and "-" indicate the writing strategy (long or short) but will have to get back to you on that.

cfitz

by **cfitz** on Wed May 07, 2003 8:10 pm

I believe I confused media grade and media type. Read through this thread as well, taking particular note of spath's comments:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php ... adid=49703

If I read this correctly, the A,B,C/+,- designations define disc characteristics that help the drive select its writing strategy. They would thus have nothing to do with the letter quality grades from Media Science and Clover that I originally posted.

See also this article on OPC where it discusses three different write strategies with either low or high beta:

http://www.mscience.com/faq64.html

I will leave the original posts (with notes indicating that I believe them to be in error) for the sake of completeness and because they have some interest in their own right.

cfitz

by **Inertia** on Wed May 07, 2003 9:01 pm

The quality of a disc is determined after it is manufactured. Discs must have data (CDDA or CD-ROM) content for a quality test based on error rates. Disc quality is the interaction of the recorded disc with the playback mechanism(s) under varying speeds and conditions.

The codes described above would have to be OPC codes, as the quality of a disc is not predetermined (put on a stamper) before it is made.

by **dolphinius_rex** on Thu May 08, 2003 12:07 am

Inertia: Some CD testing units are capable of testing a CD-R without any data recorded on it. These are usually tests that have to do with shape, the pre-made grooves and reflectivity. All these things are important for a CD-Rs quality!

but yes, you don't "stamp" the quality rating on the CD-R during production...though I'm sure several manufacturers (*cough*princo*cough*) would love it if they could!

by **KCK** on Thu May 08, 2003 3:47 am

I have just edited the list of suggestions for improvement:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 4360#64360

to include the recent suggestions of dolphinius_rex (S14), KCK (S15) and MediumRare (S2, S16, S17, S18).

by **MediumRare** on Thu May 08, 2003 10:33 am

cfitz wrote:I believe I confused media grade and media type. Read through this thread as well, taking particular note of spath's comments:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php ... adid=49703

If I read this correctly, the A,B,C/+,- designations define disc characteristics that help the drive select its writing strategy. They would thus have nothing to do with the letter quality grades from Media Science and Clover that I originally posted.

See also this article on OPC where it discusses three different write strategies with either low or high beta:

http://www.mscience.com/faq64.html

I will leave the original posts (with notes indicating that I believe them to be in error) for the sake of completeness and because they have some interest in their own right.

cfitz

Thank you for the information. That was very informative- esp. the Media Sciences site has a wealth of information in the FAQ.

I think I may be using the term ATIP in a somewhat casual or nonstandard manner- it may come from using this forum as a main source of information. :wink:

I guess what I referred to as ATIP is the manufacturers code which is derived from the lead-in time (complement to 99m59s75f). What I requested in S16, then, is lead-in and lead-out time. I will have to do some more reading as to what else is available in the ATIP.

spath mentioned a maximum recording speed (possibly obsolete for practical use) and here we have OPC strategies.

KCK wrote:I have just edited the list of suggestions for improvement:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 4360#64360

to include the recent suggestions of dolphinius_rex (S14), KCK (S15) and MediumRare (S2, S16, S17, S18).

KCK- Thank you for managing the wish list. I waited a couple of days (mainly because of lack of time) before posting and then did it here (like most others did).

G

by **KCK** on Fri May 09, 2003 2:13 am

MediumRare:

Do you really want to replace "ATIP" in S16 by "ATIP Lead-in and Lead-out"?

I was thinking about "ATIP Lead-in". SmartBurn's "ATIP Lead-in" seems to correspond to CD Speed's "Code"; otherwise, both display Manufacturer, Disc Type, Material/Recording Layer, and Nominal Capacity, so it's reasonable to ask for similar information from KProbe.

Perhaps KProbe should also display Recording Speed, or SMART-BURN Speed Limit if this feature is implemented.

Neither SmartBurn nor CD Speed display "ATIP Lead-out". Thus I'm wondering whether it is really needed.

by **rdgrimes** on Fri May 09, 2003 8:36 am

Isn't lead-out the same as "capacity"?

by **abgm** on Fri May 09, 2003 9:22 am

Yes, "ATIP Last Possible Start Time of Lead-out" is equal capacity

by **dolphinius_rex** on Fri May 09, 2003 11:29 am

Copy/paste from smartburn:

This Disc is designed for CD-RW/COMBO Drive Only.
Disc Type, Material = HSCD-RW, Phase Change
ATIP Lead-in = 97m 10s 00f
Norminal Capacity = 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f)
Disc Manufacturer maybe = TDK,RiTEK,COMPUSA
SMART-BURN Speed Limit = 12X

The red text is the ATIP Lead-Out of the disc. Smart burn most deffinatly DOES list it :wink:

actually, so does CD Speed, under "capacity:"

and I also belive K-Probe should include the Lead-out on the display

by **dolphinius_rex** on Fri May 09, 2003 11:40 am

Hrm, K-Probe is still at version 1.1.9 but the release date is now May 9th 2003...and there is a new feature for version 1.1.9

Check it out!

by **rdgrimes** on Fri May 09, 2003 12:04 pm

I don't see any difference, what's the new feature?
The file size if different.

by **dolphinius_rex** on Fri May 09, 2003 12:42 pm

it now says:
2.Fix some disc manufacturer information and bugs

for version 1.1.9, which wasn't there before...actually, I don't think it was there even 24 hours ago

by **MediumRare** on Fri May 09, 2003 4:29 pm

dolphinius_rex wrote:it now says:
2.Fix some disc manufacturer information and bugs

for version 1.1.9, which wasn't there before...actually, I don't think it was there even 24 hours ago

Maybe I can shed some light on this: The 2 discrepancies re. manufacturer mentioned in this forum have been fixed:

Code: Select all: SKC Disc Type = CDR old Manufacturer = OPTICAL DISC CORPRATION new Manufacturer = SKC Co., Ltd. Verbatim DataLife Pastel 32x Disc Type = CDR (A+) old: Manufacturer = SONY Corporation new: Manufacturer = Taiyo Yuden Company Limited

I sent Karr a list of all my media per e-mail but other than these 2, none of the the discrepancies I mentioned have been changed.

I'll repeat the remaining discrepancies:

Code: Select all: TDK Metallic 48x Disc Type = CDR (B-) Manufacturer = Ritek Co. Other sources: CDRIdentifier ATIP: 97m 15s 05f Disc Manufacturer: TDK Corp. Reflective layer: Dye (Short strategy; e.g. Phthalocyanine) Media type: CD-Recordable Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown nominal Capacity: 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f / LBA: 359849) SmartBUrn TDK M-dye Speed Limit = 48X CD Doctor TDK Corporation CD Speed TDK NERO 5.5.9.17 TDK Corporation; 5

Code: Select all: Tevion Silver Blue Disc Type = CDR Manufacturer = Xcitek Other sources: CDRIdentifier ATIP: 97m 25s 50f Disc Manufacturer: AMS Technology Inc. Reflective layer: Dye (Long strategy; e.g. Cyanine, Azo etc.) Media type: CD-Recordable Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown nominal Capacity: 658.59MB (74m 58s 00f / LBA: 337200) SmartBUrn Unknown Speed Limit = 48x CD Doctor AMS Technology Inc. CD Speed AMS NERO 5.5.9.17 AMS Technology Inc.; 0

Code: Select all: Unknown Disc Type = CDR Manufacturer = Ritek Co. Other sources: CDRIdentifier ATIP: 97m 27s 66f Disc Manufacturer: Ricoh Company Ltd. Reflective layer: Dye (Short strategy; e.g. Phthalocyanine) Media type: CD-Recordable Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown nominal Capacity: 651.86MB (74m 12s 00f / LBA: 333750) SmartBUrn RICOH (48x) Speed Limit = 48x CD Doctor Ricoh Company Limited CD Speed Ricoh NERO 5.5.9.17 Ricoh Company Limited; 6

New entries (I found some more disks lying around):

Code: Select all: Ricoh 24x and HR-120 24x Disc Type = CDR (C-) Manufacturer = Ritek Co. Other sources: CDRIdentifier ATIP: 97m 27s 66f Disc Manufacturer: Ricoh Company Ltd. Reflective layer: Dye (Short strategy; e.g. Phthalocyanine) Media type: CD-Recordable Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown nominal Capacity: 651.86MB (74m 12s 00f / LBA: 333750) and 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f / LBA: 359849) SmartBUrn RICOH (48x) Speed Limit = 48x CD Doctor Ricoh Company Limited CD Speed Ricoh NERO 5.5.9.17 Ricoh Company Limited; 6

Code: Select all: Tevion Silver Blue Disc Type = CDR (B+) Manufacturer = Ricoh Company Limited Other sources: CDRIdentifier ATIP: 97m 27s 00f Disc Manufacturer: Disc ID not allowed Reflective layer: Dye (Disc ID not allowed; e.g. Cyanine, Azo etc.) Media type: CD-Recordable Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown nominal Capacity: 653.76MB (74m 25s 00f / LBA: 334725) SmartBUrn CDtech,OfficeDepot Speed Limit = 40x CD Doctor Digital Storage Technology Co., Ltd. CD Speed unknown NERO 5.5.9.17 DIGITAL STORAGE TECHNOLOGY CO., LTD.; 0

I have a rewritable with the same ATIP (Lead-In). Only SmartBurn differentiates between these.

Code: Select all: Ricoh 1-4x Disc Type = NORMAL CD-RW Manufacturer = Ricoh Company Limited CDRIdentifier ATIP: 97m 27s 00f Disc Manufacturer: Disc ID not allowed Reflective layer: Phase change Media type: CD-ReWritable Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. 4X nominal Capacity: 651.86MB (74m 12s 00f / LBA: 333750) SmartBUrn RICOH,MCW,maxell CD Doctor Digital Storage Technology Co., Ltd. CD Speed Unknown NERO 5.5.9.17 DIGITAL STORAGE TECHNOLOGY CO., LTD.; 0

There seems to be some problem with Ricoh.

CD Doctor and Nero seem to use the same data base.

G

by **MediumRare** on Fri May 09, 2003 4:36 pm

KCK wrote:Do you really want to replace "ATIP" in S16 by "ATIP Lead-in and Lead-out"?

I'm not sure anymore- :roll:

yesterday I would have said Yes, but in preparing the previous post, I saw that I was using the CD-Identifier nomenclature. I guess we should leave it at that. It doesn't really matter what we call them- ATIP or Lead-In or Manufacturer's code on the one hand or Lead-Out or Nominal capacity on the other. I think the information should be there though.

G

by **dolphinius_rex** on Fri May 09, 2003 4:38 pm

Medium Rare: I checked out all you media info, and I agree with your manufacturer findings 100%

I cross referenced the ATIPs on instantinfo.de as well as my own personal archives.

I also agree that the terminoligy is not important, as long as both codes are available, preferably not in HEX though

by **KCK** on Fri May 09, 2003 9:07 pm

MediumRare, dolphinius_rex and rdgrimes:

Sorry for the confusion about "ATIP Lead-out" vs "Nominal Capacity", but let's try to clarify this detail, as well as some more important aspects.

For dolphinius_rex's example of SmartBurn's "Norminal Capacity = 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f)", if the ATIP start of lead out 79:59.74 specified the nominal capacity directly, apparently we would have 719,998 KiB = 703.12 MiB of mode 1 user data (where Ki = 1024, Mi = 1024 Ki). However, if we subtracted 2s first, 79:57.74 would yield 719,698 KiB = 702.83 MiB, i.e., SmartBurn's value. On the other hand, if we subtracted 2.5s, 79:57.37 would yield 719,624 KiB = 702.76 MiB, a too small value. Note that 702.83 MB is also reported by CDR Media Code Identifier and CDR Atip Reader, whereas CD Speed reports 703 MB; see the examples in

http://www.cdbest.net/2003/ReadNews.asp?NewsID=1384

Thus apparently all these programs subtract 2 seconds from the ATIP start of lead out for calculating the nominal capacity.

I agree that the terminology is not important, and that is better to have more information. There is no limit if such information is output to the summary file, as suggested in S15. However, in connection with S16, it might be wise to select a subset of the ATIP info, since the saved graphic files already have headers with 9 lines.

by **cfitz** on Fri May 09, 2003 11:23 pm

The Read TOC/PMA/ATIP command (data format 0100b) description in the NCITS MMC-2 document calls these numbers "ATIP Start Time of Lead-in" and "ATIP Last Possible Start Time of Lead-out".

In response to KCK's suggestion to limit the amount of ATIP information displayed in the graphics files, I think that these two parameters would be the logical choice to include.

There are a few other parameters that could be included, but they don't seem to be of much value. The most interesting would be "Lowest Usable CLV Recording Speed" and "Highest Usable CLV Recording Speed", if they contained useful information. Unfortunately these seem to be remnants of an earlier time (valid range = 2x, 4x, 6x and 8x) that never caught on. I've not seen any actual data in these fields for any of the CD-R's I've looked at. I guess that's not too surprising, since all the CD-R's I've looked at can be written at much higher speeds than 8x.

By the way, I'm sure you guys know this, but for those who haven't looked, KProbe reports the ATIP information for blank discs (along with a lot of other interesting information for both blank and recorded discs) on the "Disc Info." tab.

cfitz

by **dolphinius_rex** on Sat May 10, 2003 2:40 am

K-Probe 1.1.10 now available!

http://home.pchome.com.tw/cool/cdtools/

Release Notes v1.1.8
1.Fixed Bug : Start LBA is always 0 in PI/PO mode
2.C1/C2 average will ignore the read errors

Release Notes v1.1.9
1.Show disc manufacturer in DiscInfo tab and saved graphics
2.Fix some disc manufacturer information and bugs

Release Notes v1.1.10
1.Modify algorithm of identifing disc manufacturer

Umm, version 1.1.10 ....wouldn't that be the same as version 1.1.1 :wink:

by **MediumRare** on Sat May 10, 2003 9:56 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:K-Probe 1.1.10 now available!

...

Release Notes v1.1.10
1.Modify algorithm of identifing disc manufacturer

Thanks for the tip!

I got it and the new strategy seems to have done the trick.

All the discrepancies I mentioned seem to have been resolved. The new version 1.1.10 now shows the following manufacturers for these cases:

Code: Select all: Ricoh 24x and HR-120 24x Disc Type = CDR (C-) old Manufacturer = Ritek Co. new Manufacturer = Ricoh Company Limited

Code: Select all: Tevion Silver Blue (1) Disc Type = CDR old Manufacturer = Xcitek new Manufacturer = AMS Technology Inc.

Code: Select all: TDK Metallic 48x Disc Type = CDR (B-) old Manufacturer = Ritek Co. new Manufacturer = TDK Corporation

Code: Select all: Tevion Silver Blue (2) Disc Type = CDR (B+) old Manufacturer = Ricoh Company Limited new Manufacturer = Digital Storage Technology Co., Ltd.

Code: Select all: Unknown Disc Type = CDR old Manufacturer = Ritek Co. new Manufacturer = Ricoh Company Limited

Code: Select all: Ricoh 1-4x Disc Type = NORMAL CD-RW old Manufacturer = Ricoh Company Limited new Manufacturer = Digital Storage Technology Co., Ltd.

The manufacturers now agree with CD Doctor- even the Ricoh rewritable. See http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=50068#50068 and following for a discussion on this one, though.

A quick check of some "exotic" disks with no discrepancies didn't show any changes.

Thank you Karr!!!

G

by **MediumRare** on Sat May 10, 2003 10:02 am

dolphinius_rex wrote:Umm, version 1.1.10 ....wouldn't that be the same as version 1.1.1

You might make a case for something like 1.10, but with 2 decimals, it can't be a number- it has to be a string. :wink:

G

by **rdgrimes** on Sat May 10, 2003 11:03 am

Is anybody else playing with Karr's "Minfo 1.1"? Seems to work with all drives, at least it does with my ASUS.

by **CDHero** on Sat May 10, 2003 11:12 am

rdgrimes wrote:Is anybody else playing with Karr's "Minfo 1.1"? Seems to work with all drives, at least it does with my ASUS.

1.MInfo is a tool like Smartburn.exe , and one day it will replace
smartburn.
2.If you have any idea about this tool , welcome to reply to me !!
Thanks a lot.
3.MInfo support all drives.

by **cfitz** on Sat May 10, 2003 11:19 am

Thanks Karr! Another nice set of improvements. I haven't had a chance to check out all the new improvements, but it looks good so far.

Did you guys also download CD Media Info version 1.1? It looks like Karr's SMARTBURN.exe replacement. It is quite nice also, although I do wish the window was a little taller so I could see all the information without scrolling. The entire window can be resized (if you pick the border very carefully), but the list-box remains the same height.

<edit>Now I see that some of you have... That will teach me to eat breakfast between posts - too much can happen in 20 minutes here.

</edit>

dolphinius_rex wrote:Umm, version 1.1.10 ....wouldn't that be the same as version 1.1.1

Hey! Give Karr a break!

It is common practice to use multi-digit version/build numbers. Right-click->properties->version on just about any DLL in system32 and you will see Microsoft does the same.

cfitz

by **rdgrimes** on Sat May 10, 2003 11:22 am

MInfo support all drives

Is it reporting the correct max speed for the specific media on all drives?

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