Official K-Probe Discussion (Tool for Scanning C1C2/PIPO)

[spath]

> It is useful to note that SMART-Burn does not call on any LiteOn-specific
> features. A Philips 2600 will work just as well as the latest LiteOn 52246S
> with the program, write speed and all.

So if the max speed is stored in the firmware and if you think Smartburn
works on any drive, how does it extract this information from all these
different firmwares ?

[abgm]

> It is useful to note that SMART-Burn does not call on any LiteOn-specific
> features. A Philips 2600 will work just as well as the latest LiteOn 52246S
> with the program, write speed and all.

So if the max speed is stored in the firmware and if you think Smartburn
works on any drive, how does it extract this information from all these
different firmwares ?

By using MMC-command.

[spath]

> By using MMC-command.

Hahaha, good one. Anything more precise than that ?

[abgm]

> By using MMC-command.

Hahaha, good one. Anything more precise than that ?

more precise

MMC-3 GET PERFORMANCE Command
5.7.4 Write Speed (Type=03h)
This command reports a list of possible Write Speed descriptors. If recordable media is mounted, Logical Unit shall report the list of speeds that are available for the Blocks of the current mounted medium. If no recordable media is mounted, Logical Unit shall report the most appropriate list of speeds such as the list for CD-R media or just maximum recording speed. Logical Unit shall report Write Speed descriptors in descending order of the Write Speed value.

[RuGuy]

Persistant C2 error at 57:05 on LTR-40125S when tested @ 48x

I keep getting a single peak of C2 errors, at about 57:05:00 (+/- several frames) on different disks written at different speeds (24x,32x) when I test them with KProbe tried (1.1.4, 1.1.9) at maximum speed, i.e. 48x

When reading at 32x, I do not get this C2 surge (while the reported C1 rate is a bit higher than at 48x).

Can anyone (Mr.Wang preferably :)) explain this C2 behaviour? Is this drive-generated or media-generated? What is, if anything, wrong?

P.S. My drive, to be precise, is a Sony CRX195E1 flashed to LTR-40125S ZS0P.

[rdgrimes]

C2 error at 57:05

This is the well-known 57 min "speed bump" that occurs on the "5" series drives. Just ignore it, it's a reading glitch and the error will not occur on another drive.

[spath]

> more precise

> MMC-3 GET PERFORMANCE Command

Nice try, but wrong First, for your information not all drives
are MMC-3 compliant, especially not Philips 2600. And Smartburn
does not use this command anyway. On non-LiteON drives,
it tries to find the max speed only by reading the ATIP
informations. And when it does not find any max speed value
in the ATIP, which will happen on most CD-Rs, it just
returns the max speed of the drive. Which makes Smartburn
pretty useless on non-LiteON drives, as rdgrimes explained.

[MediumRare]

Another neat feature would be listing the write strategy and the dye type of the CD. I'm not sure what would be required to implement this though.

I don't think it is too difficult, but I don't have the data at my fingertips.

Let me point you at this post: http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=50231#50231

The manufacture.txt file from CD Doctor lists DST as starting at 97,27,01 so I think the Doctor has a boundary problem in its lookup routine and Jase is probably right.

According to the OSJ Disc Identification Method document ( www.cdr-forum.de/download/cdr.pdf ), the last digit of the ATIP code is used to indicate the media type/recording strategy (e.g. cyanine/long strategy, phthalocyanine/shortstrategy), so CD Doctor probably just ignores the last digit when looking up the manufacturer.

G

[cfitz]

That's what I was after! Thanks MediumRare. I couldn't find it, and certainly wouldn't have thought to look in the media compatibility thread for it.

cfitz

[RuGuy]

This is the well-known 57 min "speed bump" that occurs on the "5" series drives..

Thanks for the info rdgrimes! I guessed it could be related to the transition from CAV to CLV... I'll have to look it up somewhere out of curiosity.

[rdgrimes]

guessed it could be related to the transition from CAV to CLV...

It's a reading glitch, not a writing one. You should see it on any disc you scan, or at least some of them.

[abgm]

First, for your information not all drives
are MMC-3 compliant, especially not Philips 2600.

And for such drives SB can find only max drive speed. But I have information that SB properly working with NEC9300.

And Smartburn does not use this command anyway.

Why you so confident?

On non-LiteON drives,
it tries to find the max speed only by reading the ATIP
informations.

And where in ATIP information you can find "max speed value"?

[j_c_hallgren]

I have just started using my BackPack 232010 unit...it says it's a Lite-On LTR-48246S internally...so now found this KP pgm thing...and tried it...on my first CD burned with this unit...used Fuji (TY)disk...says I have ZERO C2 errors...i presume this is good news? C1=max 6, tot=401, avg=.128 This also is a good sign?

On another disk, I got C1=max 9, tot=1029 and Zero=C2..is this also within good tolerances?

Sorry for the basic post but wanted to find out just what I am looking at! Thanks!!!

[dolphinius_rex]

I'd say you have some VERY good discs there
if you're interested to see how they compare to other media, feel free to check out my webpage (the link is in my signature)

[spath]

> And for such drives SB can find only max drive speed.

Tell jase, not me.

> But I have information that SB properly working with NEC9300.

Then find a better explanation for this than GET_PERFORMANCE.

> Why you so confident?

Because instead of just guessing I really looked at what this
program does on my SCSI bus.

> And where in ATIP information you can find "max speed value"?

It is called Highest Usable CLV Recording Speed and it is stored in the H
bits of ATIP special information when M1S1F1=001. Smartburn gets it with
the ReadTOC/PMA/ATIP command and uses byte 12 of the returned ATIP
descriptor.

[dolphinius_rex]

You know, every time I start thinking that I am starting to get a good handle on how things work in the whole recordable media industry, somebody like Spath, cfitz or any number of other REALLY intelligent people, comes a long and makes a really awe inspiring post that usually leaves me with hours of research to do, just to understand the first paragraph or two!!

But you know what? keep it up your guys! even the arguments you get in are really useful and informative. I tell you, I would love to grab every member who has participated in this topic and just sit you all together for coffee so we could all pick each other's brains!

I can't speak for eveyone who frequents this topic, but I for one am learning a lot! THANKS!

[cfitz]

Because instead of just guessing I really looked at what this program does on my SCSI bus.

I was hoping that you wouldn't make this post, but I was wondering if you would since I suspected you already knew the answer. Also, you did a similar thing earlier in this thread when you challenged dolphinius_rex about a comment he wrote regarding specialized test hardware. Spath, no disrespect intended, but it would be a lot more helpful if you would just share what you know right from the start rather than waiting for someone to make a comment you can shoot down.

Perhaps you are trying to encourage people to do their own research. Perhaps you don't feel that your insight is appreciated, so you don't feel motivated to share it. I don't know. But I do know that leading people on when you already know the answer, prodding them into posting their thoughts and then telling them they are wrong comes across as if you are simply satisfying your ego by demonstrating how much you know and how little everyone else knows.

Again, I'm not trying to start a flame war. It is evident that you have a lot of knowledge about CD burning technology, so I am just requesting that you share it rather than lord it.

cfitz

[abgm]

>Tell jase, not me.
My expirience and expirience my friends from russian iXBT CDRW forum give only this value for no-Lite-ON devices, except NEC9300

>Then find a better explanation for this than GET_PERFORMANCE.
I can't find better explanation if Nero BR get similar information from wide class CDRW's with other write strategy mechanism (ASUS, NEC, TEAC etc.) I think that both programs used standart MMC command.

>It is called Highest Usable CLV Recording Speed
But according MMC2 standart this max value is only 8x. And I think that this not really used in modern CDR's. But if you really looked at what this program does on my SCSI bus then you having mach more information than I.

[spath]

cfitz:
you're not a moderator here, so don't tell me what I should do.
If the moderators or the people I am talking to don't like what I
say, they can speak for themselves and tell me. Until then don't
tell me how to post and I won't tell you how to post either.

[cfitz]

Spath, you are certainly welcome to continue posting as you have been doing. I was not accusing you of violating any forum rules, nor was I telling you how to post, I was merely requesting that you change your posting habits to better share your knowledge with the readers of this forum. It was just my opinion, to which I am entitled despite not being a moderator, and you are free to disagree with it and not act upon it. Since you have indicated that you do disagree with it, I will not pursue it any further.

cfitz

[abgm]

spath
cfitz
flame war begins? Lets stop it and continue technical discussion!

[Ian]

cfitz:
you're not a moderator here, so don't tell me what I should do.
If the moderators or the people I am talking to don't like what I
say, they can speak for themselves and tell me. Until then don't
tell me how to post and I won't tell you how to post either.

OK, I've stayed out of this longer than I should have.

spath, your condescending attitude has gotten a number of complaints from the members of this forum. You obviously know a great deal about the subjects discussed here, but instead of helping or contributing in a positive way, you are going out of your way to start arguments.

Please reacquaint yourself with the forum rules (http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=8914). If you cannot abide by these rules, I will have to remove you from the forums.

[CDHero]

Smartburn.exe is a media infomation tool for LiteOn .It was
written by my pal.But it has some problems.
I also ever want to put it into KProbe,but it's functionality was restricted.
Now Liteon is creating "LITEON MEDIA LIBRARY".Kprobe uses
it as reference.So currently KProbe maybe give you a wrong
information for some discs.But long term KProbe will support
more and more disc type , DVD included.And Kprobe will give
you more accurate , detail information.

In fact , Smartburn.exe is a very simple program.
It just send four ATAPI commands to drive

1.Testunit ready - to check if media is present
2.Read ATIP - to get LeadIn and LeadOut
3.Set CD Speed - it sets Max speed to drive
4.Mode send 0x2A page - to get current drive write speed

All information , disc manufacturer id or speed limit , are
not stored in FW.I can tell you there are some information
stored in EEPROM , but ther are not enough to identify all disc types.

If KProbe get the information from FW for this feature, this feature
will become another "FOR LITEON ONLY" feature.

I also can add all features of smartburn.exe into KProbe,
But I have another idea for these features.
In order to make KProbe more flexible and more powerful ,
I think I must get more suggestions and information from all of you.
Thank you very much.

[cfitz]

Hi Karr. Would it be helpful for us to compile a list of possible enhancements we would like to see and then put the list to a vote? That way you could have an ordered list of the most wanted features and wouldn't have to search the threads looking for individual suggestions. Just a thought...

cfitz

[KCK]

Karr Wang:

Thanks a lot for providing so much information on KProbe and SmartBurn! It should help in re-focusing our recent discussions.

If I understood correctly, the long-term strategy is to make KProbe compatible with "Lite-On Media Library", so that eventually KProbe will replace SmartBurn. Then, of course, it will be nice to have the disc information in the saved graphic file.

Personally, I don't feel that you should waste your time on trying to incorporate the features of SmartBurn into KProbe, unless: (1) you think it would be easy; or (2) the development of the "Lite-On Media Library" may take much time.

In practical terms, if you decide to keep the current "Disc Information" output based on "Lite-On Media Library", please tell us whether we should report SmartBurn's output whenever it disagrees with KProbe.

cfitz:

It's an excellent idea to compile a ranked list of possible enhancements. However, could you specify how to implement your idea? The list should be easily accessible to Karr, and its contents may change when new suggestions are added. For a fixed list, a simple pool (maybe in another thread) might suffice, but the list will change dynamically. Further, several of the past suggestions have been couched in fairly vague terms, so even their meanings might change upon clarification.