Official K-Probe Discussion (Tool for Scanning C1C2/PIPO)

[CDHero]

What is PUH slipping ?

Ex:
Normal situation
LBA Address : 1,36,74,109,140,170,205....

Abnormal situation 1
LBA Address : 1,36,74,19587,19600,...
=>Slip out a large range

Abnormal situation 2
LBA Address : 1,36,74,13488,10345,10370,10401,...
=>Slip out a large range and slip back a small range

Abnormal situation 3
LBA Address : 1,36,74,109,140,35,70,105,34,71,....
=>recursively slip a small range

But all these situation are not always caused by unreadable sectors .

[rdgrimes]

But a unreadable sector does not mean it is
really unreadable.Sometimes it is caused by PUH slipping.

As posted here:
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php ... post414361

This is a reproducable issue where an unreadable sector always occurs, and the data is corrupted. In some cases, Kprobe fails to reports even a C2 at that point.
Also, do you have any input about the cause of these errors? It occurs when SmartBurn intervenes and lowers the burn speed very late in the burn, at speeds of 45x and above, but not at lower speeds.

[CDHero]

But a unreadable sector does not mean it is
really unreadable.Sometimes it is caused by PUH slipping.

As posted here:
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php ... post414361

This is a reproducable issue where an unreadable sector always occurs, and the data is corrupted. In some cases, Kprobe fails to reports even a C2 at that point.
Also, do you have any input about the cause of these errors? It occurs when SmartBurn intervenes and lowers the burn speed very late in the burn, at speeds of 45x and above, but not at lower speeds.

Dear rdgrimes:
I cannot duplicate the issue.
Can you tell me how to reproduce the issue step by step ?
And your model ? F/W ?
Thanks

[rdgrimes]

Can you tell me how to reproduce the issue step by step ?

LTR-52246S, occurs with any F/W version. Smartburn intervenes late in the burn to slow the speed. This occurs when burning at 52x, most media will not complete the burn at full speed. If it intervenes above about 45x, it creates an unreadable sector at that point. (just one sector) If it occurs earlier, everything is fine. Several people have reported the same problem with this drive, but not everyone. It seems to have improved a bit with later firmware versions.
I haven't really scanned many other discs with unreadable sectors to see if Kprobe also misses them, but it always does with this particular one. I've checked several discs with the same error, and it always misses them.

[rdgrimes]

Can you tell me how to reproduce the issue step by step ?

Update: I went through a bunch of old test discs, (I knew there was a reason to keep them all), and found 6 or 8 with the same type of error.
Here's another example: Verbatim DLP 48x media burned at 52x (700MB)
(the red spike in CDSpeed is the unreadable sector)







Scanning in Kprobe at 8x produces a very similar result. The obvious difference with CDSpeed is that it allows the drive to adjust speed, and in every instance, it will slow and re-read before announcing the unreadable sector. so it would appear that Kprobe just skips over it. About 1/3 of the time, Kprobe will not indicate any C2 at the error point. Also, the CSV file does not indicate any errors at that point, just the C2.

I realize this is a bit off topic, but what really interests me is the error itself. As you can see, there is no cascade of C1 or C2 leading up to the error, which would seem to me to support the notion that this is a drive-induced burn error, not a media problem. But the question remains: is this error a result of the drive slowing the burn speed, (drive induced), or the cause of it, (media induced)? If the drive slows before about the 95% point, the error is much less likely to occur. All of the discs that have this error will fail data verification in Nero, and often the data is unreadable in Windows too. It just depends on where the error falls in the data. The drives that create this error seem to be ones that are more prone to slowing burn speed above 45x. Those folks with drives that do not slow down, on the same media, do not report this error. Also, the drive will not produce the error every time on identical media, but at least 75% of the time.

[dolphinius_rex]

I have a similar problem. a single spike of C2 errors that appears almost everytime I test a CD at speeds of 40x or 48x )I have a 40125S running as a 48125W, however, the problem exists under both firmware types).

[rdgrimes]

I have a similar problem. a single spike of C2 errors that appears almost everytime I test a CD at speeds of 40x or 48x

That sounds more like the infamous "speed bump" that the "5" series drives show while reading. It always occurs at about 57 min. It's a reading glitch, not a "real" error.

[dolphinius_rex]

Well, I have learned not to worry about it, as it never appeared to be a real problem. I just adjust my testing speed to eliminate the result, at the same time keeping it at a realistic level so as to provide good testing info under real life conditions

[abgm]

I add a feature in v1.1.9.
Please visit the KProbe website.
This feature is showing the disc manufacturer name.
If Kprobe cannot recognize your disc , please send the
LeadIn and LeadOut information to me , thanks!!!

Two CD-R's: SKC 24x Premier and SKC 48x with the same ATIP info:
ATIP Start Time of Lead-In [MSF]: 97:26:26
ATIP Last Possible Start Time of Lead-Out [MSF]: 79:59:73
Manufacturer by Nero BR - SKC, by SMART-BURN Media Check Simulator v2.1 - SKC(Korea only), by KProbe ... - OPTICAL DISC CORPRATION. Where are a mistake?

P.S. Thanks for your excellent program, Mr. Wang!

[dolphinius_rex]

Hey Mr. Wang,

Why not make the list of ATIPs a seperate .csv file, so we can simply download the updated version from your site, instead of you needing to release a new version of K-Probe everytime you change something?

also this would allow us to make our own changes to the file

[rdgrimes]

Why not make the list of ATIPs a seperate

wouldn't it be even MORE cool to have SmartBurn Media Checker plugged into Kprobe? then the info would be pulled right from the firmware.

[jase]

Why not make the list of ATIPs a seperate

wouldn't it be even MORE cool to have SmartBurn Media Checker plugged into Kprobe? then the info would be pulled right from the firmware.

Is that possible? I wasn't aware LiteOn's firmware had the names of the media manufacturers in its database?

Of course, the Smartburn media checker itself is frequently inaccurate, due to the number of cheaper/more obscure manufacturers out there.

I get exactly the same problem with my 52246S with the SMARTBurn causing unreadable sectors. Very annoying, if it's going to do that it should just reject the disc rather than tell me everything's OK when it patently isn't

[rdgrimes]

Is that possible? I wasn't aware LiteOn's firmware had the names of the media manufacturers in its database?

The database of ATIP info is contained in the F/W, which is part of why we have updates. The main problem with ATIP info is that it is on the stamper, which can be used by any number of manufacturers to make any type of crappy media they like. It'll never be 100% reliable, it's just a hint. It's better than doing nothing to try to protect the user from crappy media, but it's not a substitute for the user testing his/her own burns for quality and adjusting speeds accordingly. But to answer your question, yes SB media checker pulls it's info from the firmware, which is why you see a max speed for a given CDR change when F/W gets updated.

[KCK]

Although this disturbs current sub-threads on further improvements of KProbe, I'd like to observe that KProbe already compares quite favorably to the Q-Check C1/C2 Errors utility of PlexTools Professional:

http://www.plextor.com/english/support/ ... 00006.html

In particular, Q-Check doesn't display maximum and average counts, and has no options for logarithmic diagrams, auto Y-axis, captions, etc. Further, Q-Check halts if a CU error is detected.

Also note that for Q-Check "you see the error counts representing the result of C1 error measurement (BLER) and C2 error measurement (E22)". Well, this adds yet another weird twist to the old discussion on what errors are reported by such utilities.

Since the advice to use Q-Check "on CD-R media created by DAO (disc-at-once) recording" could imply that Q-Check doesn't perform well on non-DAO discs, I wonder how KProbe handles TAO and multisession discs. Since I don't use such discs, I'd like to ask other users about their experiences.

[dolphinius_rex]

Why not make the list of ATIPs a seperate

wouldn't it be even MORE cool to have SmartBurn Media Checker plugged into Kprobe? then the info would be pulled right from the firmware.

I would NOT like to see SmartBurn integrated into K-Probe, for one it would force Mr. Wang to get the rights to it, and that might be difficult even for him, and more importantly, SmartBurn only checks the ATIP lead in, and not the appropriate Lead-Out as well! This can sometimes help in decerning the manufacturer when two different factories use the same Lead-In ID.

Smart burn is pretty good, but K-Probe can be better on it's own!!

Actually, why not just incorperate the media speed checking into K-Probe and you won't need SmartBurn anymore

Another neat feature would be listing the write strategy and the dye type of the CD. I'm not sure what would be required to implement this though. I know that SmartBurn sometimes can't figure out what dye type is used though

[cfitz]

Although this disturbs current sub-threads on further improvements of KProbe, I'd like to observe that KProbe already compares quite favorably to the Q-Check C1/C2 Errors utility of PlexTools Professional:

Good point. I think KProbe stands its own very well against any competition out there. As you say, that doesn't mean we won't welcome more improvements, it just means we are very appreciative of what Karr has already given us.

cfitz

[cfitz]

Is that possible? I wasn't aware LiteOn's firmware had the names of the media manufacturers in its database?

Jase is talking about the ASCII strings with the actual names of the manufacturers, not the ATIP codes. I think he is correct that the names aren't in the firmware, even though the ATIP codes and associated writing strategies are. I've looked in the firmware updates, and can't find any names. Also, SMART-BURN can display manufacturer name data even when reading a disc in a non-LiteOn drive that certainly wouldn't have LiteOn compatible firmware.

I think dolphinius_rex had a good idea about making the ATIP/manufacturer name data separate from the executable so that Karr doesn't have to release a new executable just to incorporate ATIP updates, but whichever is easier for Karr is fine with me.

cfitz

[cfitz]

Another neat feature would be listing the write strategy and the dye type of the CD. I'm not sure what would be required to implement this though.

I don't think it is too difficult, but I don't have the data at my fingertips.

cfitz

[dolphinius_rex]

...To answer your question, yes SB media checker pulls it's info from the firmware, which is why you see a max speed for a given CDR change when F/W gets updated.

Umm, I don't think the max speed is recorded in the firmware. I have 5 CD-RW discs made my CMC, and branded smart and friendly. 4 of them can be re-written at 2x and the fifth can be re-written at 4x. They all have the same ATIP lead-in and ATIP Lead-out. I figured I'd just gotten lucky with the 4x one when I bought it, which was the last one of the 5 that I bought, and that was about 7 years ago!

also, it wasn't just my 40125S (now 48125W) LiteON drive that acted this way, it also burned at 4x on my mother's creative 12x10x32x (Which is a rebadged LiteON) and my old Yamaha 4x4x16x.

[rdgrimes]

Umm, I don't think the max speed is recorded in the firmware

I didn't say whether it was or wasn't, but the fact remains that max speeds often change when firmware updates, and the checker tool has never been updated. In the case where the media is not listed in the database, the drive sets the speed based on a "generic" profile. So it's possible that a media may get added where it was previously considered "generic".

[jase]

Max speed for CD-R media *is* recorded in firmware. CDR media doesn't have a max speed as such; it is determined by the drive manufacturer.

Hence, for example, some old Ritek 16x media I have will burn at 16x in the BTC48x, 24x on the Aopen 40x, 32x on the Artec 52x and 52x on the LiteOn 52x.

In each case the SMART-Burn program picks up the correct value. The max speeds are held in firmware, and read out by the SMART-Burn program.

What SMART-Burn doesn't do is read out a string from the drive determining the media manufacturer's name. It reads out the ATIP info only and determines the manufacturer name from that, from its own database. This part of the SMART-Burn program *will* need to be updated eventually.

It is useful to note that SMART-Burn does not call on any LiteOn-specific features. A Philips 2600 will work just as well as the latest LiteOn 52246S with the program, write speed and all.

[dolphinius_rex]

jase: I'm not saying your wrong, but how does that explain my CD-RW situation?

[jase]

Because CDRW is done differently: a 4x CDRW will record at a maximum of 4x on EVERY drive. On these discs the max speed is recorded in the Lead-In. Likewise a 2x will burn at 2x (although some drives will record them at 4x as they don't have a 2x option )

[rdgrimes]

A Philips 2600 will work just as well as the latest LiteOn 52246S with the program, write speed and all.

But Smartburn will show the drive's max speed for all media, not the correct max speed for that media, which is evidence that it is reading something in the firmware related to speed.

[jase]

A Philips 2600 will work just as well as the latest LiteOn 52246S with the program, write speed and all.

But Smartburn will show the drive's max speed for all media, not the correct max speed for that media, which is evidence that it is reading something in the firmware related to speed.

Only in the sense that the 2600 writes all discs at 2x...

Trust me, I've used the SMART-Burn program with numerous non-LiteOn burners and the program has come up with the correct burning speed for that media/burner combination in all instances.

The speed it is reading is the same value all the other burning programs are using to display max speed