Difference between DVD+R/W and DVD-R/W

[F1Pilot]

I apologize in advance for this question, since I'm sure it's been asked many times before. What IS the big difference between DVD+R/W and DVD-R/W? Is it structurally/architecturally different as far as internals go (laser)?

[Ian]

I'm sure someone will give you links to about 5 million other posts. In the mean time, read here:

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/faq/faq_general.html

[F1Pilot]

I'm sure someone will give you links to about 5 million other posts. In the mean time, read here:

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/faq/faq_general.html

LOL! Yeah, I know, Ian. I'm bracing myself! Thanks for the link. I was just curious (for the sake of wondering, and too much time on my hands) whether if a DVD-R/W (A05) could be "firmwared" in the future for multiformat (like the 500A).

[Ian]

could be "firmwared" in the future for multiformat (like the 500A).

Nope it can't.

[jase]

Ian, are you in the habit of posting links to biased sources?

[Kennyshin]

Ian, are you in the habit of posting links to biased sources?

What isn't?

[jase]

Yeah, but some of the information on that site is blatently one-sided, and often their claims about how terrible DVD-R is are outdated or just plain false. -R compatible with 65% of players vs 85% for DVD+R indeed.....

[Kennyshin]

Yeah, but some of the information on that site is blatently one-sided, and often their claims about how terrible DVD-R is are outdated or just plain false. -R compatible with 65% of players vs 85% for DVD+R indeed.....

I've seen worse claims on other sites. Surely the number does not come from the site admin himself but just a quote? How many wrong quotes at DVDRHelp and Doom9?

For technical comparison between DVD-R(W) and DVD+R(W), just what is a better source for the average readers? Since it is a site dedicated to DVD+RW, it is quite easy to guess it is biased towards DVD+RW as an AMDxxx.com is biased towards AMD and rather against Intel.

[jase]

Oh come on, let's have a look at that link for a second.

The DVD-RAM and DVD-R/-RW supporters have announced numurous (sic) compatibility programs for their DVD players (such as "DVD-Multi" and "VR support")

Rubbish. These are not compatibility programs, they are extensions. DVD+R equally has extensions which make the format less compatible. This skewed statement implies that DVD-R is fudging the format to make it more compatible, and using examples which bear no relation to the claim whatsoever.

DVD-R and DVD-RW were initially not designed to be used as a DVD-compatible recording solution.

That is a total distortion of the truth. If you were to add the word "only" between initially and not you may be getting closer to the truth, but this statement is implying again that DVD-R is a fudged format with compatibility added in later -- total nonsense. To mention nothing of the way DVD+R was designed to take advantage of Sony/Philips CD patents rather than take the existing DVD ones.

Interestingly, the Jim Taylor DVD FAQ (a lot more neutral than dvdplusrw.org, and a piece I'd recommend anyone read in preference) mentions that

DVD+RW backers claimed in 1997 that the format would be used only for computer data, not home video, but this was apparently a smokescreen intended to placate the DVD Forum and competitors. The original 1.0 format, which held 3 billion bytes (2.8 gigabytes) per side and was not compatible with any existing players and drives, was abandoned in late 1999.

Puts the dvdplusrw.org claim into perspective......

by then most companies had decided not to support these new DVD Forum formats but instead opt for a better solution

"Better solution"? Jesus, how much spin is that?

The DVD Forum is not a standards-setting body, but instead just a trade-organization promoting some standards.

And the DVD+RW alliance isn't? Is some kid writing this?

Ironically, the DVD+R/+RW format is more faitfull (sic) to the official DVD Forum-developped (sic) DVD-Video specification than the DVD-R/-RW/-RAM formats developed by the Forum itself!

A very strong claim, but where is their evidence to back this up? I've looked around their site and can't find a shred of hard evidence to confirm or deny this statement. So in other words, it's more marketing hype.

however, only DVD+R/+RW is designed from the start to be compatible with existing DVD-ROM drives and DVD-Video players

Well they didn't do such a good job then. Older DVD-ROMs have needed firmware or hardware upgrades to run DVD+R just as much as DVD-R. In fact if anyone can show me a single non-Sony/Philips-derived DVD player which, out of the box, runs DVD+R but not DVD-R I'd be very surprised.

Furthermore, DVD-R/-RW is less suitable for data applications as well due to a number of technical limitations (such as the inability of random access writing)

There is no true random-access writing for either DVD+R/W nor DVD-R/W.

DVD-RAM/-R/-RW lies the burden of compatibility on the player, while DVD+R/+RW lies the burden of compatibility on the recorder itself.

So as long as a DVD+R is written properly on the recorder, it will play on absolutely EVERY DVD player then. What absolute and total carp.

As mentioned above a good piece is the Jim Taylor DVD FAQ, to be found here...

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/officialfaq.html

With the recordable section here...

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/officialfaq.html#4

[jase]

For technical comparison between DVD-R(W) and DVD+R(W), just what is a better source for the average readers? Since it is a site dedicated to DVD+RW, it is quite easy to guess it is biased towards DVD+RW as an AMDxxx.com is biased towards AMD and rather against Intel.

Quite right. But if someone asked for a comparison between Pepsi and Coca-Cola, would you send them to www.pepsifanboys.com?

[Kennyshin]

For technical comparison between DVD-R(W) and DVD+R(W), just what is a better source for the average readers? Since it is a site dedicated to DVD+RW, it is quite easy to guess it is biased towards DVD+RW as an AMDxxx.com is biased towards AMD and rather against Intel.

Quite right. But if someone asked for a comparison between Pepsi and Coca-Cola, would you send them to www.pepsifanboys.com?

It's you who is acting one. Jim Taylor's DVD FAQ is hardly a dedicated DVD recordable site. It is updated usually once in a month. The information's too incomplete and outdated. If you think DVD FAQ's more correct than DVDPlusRW.org, I can't agree. I don't think he spends more time on this than me at all.

Well, and if you want to restart all this again, why not at DVDRHelp? That's always the best place for such things, I think.

DVD FAQ is here: http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#4.3
I began translating the entire page into Korean ten weeks ago.

[jase]

It's you who is acting one.

Why is that? I am simply refuting what I believe to be glaring inaccuracies in an obviously distorted version of the truth. If you were to point the original request to a DVD-R site which made similar wild claims for its chosen product, I would be equally scathing. But a DVDR-fanboy site was not suggested, so I see little point in picking one apart on this occasion.

FYI I couldn't care less who "wins" this format battle. I have both a DVD-R and DVD+R recorder and have used both formats extensively, and can honestly see very little difference between the two in terms of performance or compatibility. DVD+R may well have a few extra tricks, that much is beyond question, but it would have -- it came 3 years after the first format. If I seem a little anti-DVD+R, it is only because I see the format as an unnecessary complication -- there was already a format which did the job perfectly well, so a rival only served to muddy the waters by the time it was released.

Jim Taylor's DVD FAQ is hardly a dedicated DVD recordable site. It is updated usually once in a month. The information's too incomplete and outdated. If you think DVD FAQ's more correct than DVDPlusRW.org, I can't agree

That as may be, but incomplete and outdated, though not false, information is better than a less than impartial account which amounts to little more than an advertisement for one side, surely? An analogy would be, Fox News may get to a political story before NBC say, but I would trust NBC before Fox to be unbiased even if I had to wait a while.

I don't think he spends more time on this than me at all.

I really don't understand this comment. What difference does it make how much time anyone spends on a subject? Facts are all that is important -- the best way to formulate your own opinion is to be presented facts in as impartial a manner as possible, and do the rest of the work yourself. "Why brand X is better than brand Y" is not useful by itself.

And why bring yourself into the conversation? No-one has questioned your expertise, have they? Why so defensive?

[jase]

I apologize in advance for this question, since I'm sure it's been asked many times before. What IS the big difference between DVD+R/W and DVD-R/W? Is it structurally/architecturally different as far as internals go (laser)?

To get back to the point, you will generally find little difference between the two. The writers are very similar internally, as are the media.

The writers will generally be cheaper for +R, but the media is slightly cheaper in the main for -R.

Compatibility is generally on a par. You MAY find a few older players which pre-date DVD+R have problems with the + format but which may work with -R, until firmware is updated if available.

As for who will win, who can tell. It'll probably come down to market forces in the end. There isn't really (despite what those on BOTH sides will tell you) that much in terms of useful features to separate the two. +R can be more elegant in its approach but -R has become a defacto standard.

My suggestion would be to either buy the cheapest unit you can find and replace it once it's clear which standard will "win" (or if you are going to be burning a large number of write-once discs consider the price of the media you'll be using and do the same). Or buy a dual-format writer, use probably -R discs for now (for costs reasons again) and then swap and change between the two as the media prices fluctuate.

[F1Pilot]

I apologize in advance for this question, since I'm sure it's been asked many times before. What IS the big difference between DVD+R/W and DVD-R/W? Is it structurally/architecturally different as far as internals go (laser)?

To get back to the point, you will generally find little difference between the two. The writers are very similar internally, as are the media.

The writers will generally be cheaper for +R, but the media is slightly cheaper in the main for -R.

Compatibility is generally on a par. You MAY find a few older players which pre-date DVD+R have problems with the + format but which may work with -R, until firmware is updated if available.

As for who will win, who can tell. It'll probably come down to market forces in the end. There isn't really (despite what those on BOTH sides will tell you) that much in terms of useful features to separate the two. +R can be more elegant in its approach but -R has become a defacto standard.

My suggestion would be to either buy the cheapest unit you can find and replace it once it's clear which standard will "win" (or if you are going to be burning a large number of write-once discs consider the price of the media you'll be using and do the same). Or buy a dual-format writer, use probably -R discs for now (for costs reasons again) and then swap and change between the two as the media prices fluctuate.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm not shopping around for a burner, I have an A05 right now. Just for curiousitys sake, I was wondering if hacked firmware(s) could come to the point of flashing an A05 for +R/RW.

[jase]

Thanks for the feedback! I'm not shopping around for a burner, I have an A05 right now. Just for curiousitys sake, I was wondering if hacked firmware(s) could come to the point of flashing an A05 for +R/RW.

No unfortunately. There are minor, but fundamental hardware differences between the two, and the firmware would require a substantial rewrite to allow DVD+R writing in any case, not just changing a few keys to allow faster writing speeds.

The A05 is a perfectly good writer as it is. My advice would just be to run it until/unless DVD-R/W media becomes uneconomical -- which shouldn't be for a couple of years yet (for either format) if it even happens at all.

FWIW I personally think the two formats will be forced to merge in the end. The problem is, this could cause problems for users of BOTH DVD+r AND DVD-R units being sold currently. I'd keep your existing drive until it falls apart, or until 8x drives go under $100

[Kennyshin]

It's you who is acting one.

And why bring yourself into the conversation? No-one has questioned your expertise, have they? Why so defensive?

DVD FAQ just can't do. DVDplusRW.org has been much more useful to me. I meant he cannot dedicate his time to recordable DVDs to update his page as often as other dedicated sites like DVDRHelp and DVDplusRW do. DVDPrime.com is South Korea's largest DVD-related site and it also has a Korean translation (not mine) of Jim Taylor's DVD FAQ. However, the site is pathetically incompetent in recordable DVD technologies.

Since you are accusing the site to be a fanboy something, you are also accusing those who have helped it to have the current contents of being such. I am one of the most prolific posters there. Basically, what you said just seem to accuse everyone related there of some marketing tool for HP and Philips. That's why I said you are acting one.

DVD-R doing what perfectly well? Why create the US and the UN when other countries and empires were already present doing their jobs perfectly well and why create various standards of HDTV, blue laser, VDSL, and so on when there have been analog/SDTV, CD, dial-up PSTN modem, and so on just doing their jobs perfectly well? For DVD drive and media manufacturers, it barely adds cost to switch from DVD-R to DVD+R and DVD-RW to DVD+RW. If DVD+RW companies offer better prices for more features, the PC industry and the general consumers will just follow whether there was DVD-R and DVD-RAM or not.

As for who will win, who can tell. It'll probably come down to market forces in the end. There isn't really (despite what those on BOTH sides will tell you) that much in terms of useful features to separate the two. +R can be more elegant in its approach but -R has become a defacto standard.

I can just laugh at anyone who says DVD-R is a standard while DVD+R is not.

[jase]

Since you are accusing the site to be a fanboy something, you are also accusing those who have helped it to have the current contents of being such. I am one of the most prolific posters there. Basically, what you said just seem to accuse everyone related there of some marketing tool for HP and Philips. That's why I said you are acting one.

So someone who questions the motives of a site which universally praises one format over another, always pointing out the positives of one vs the negatives of another, and steadfastly refusing to acknowledge that its preferred format also has its weaknesses, is automatically a fanboy? I'm sorry, but if you genuinely believe that, you have a very strange view of the world!!!

And if you knew me, you'd know that to suggest I'm anti-Philips is just plain ludicrous. I have a number of quite close contacts at Philips Semiconductors in Southampton, UK, and worked there myself for a while (Southampton is a key R&D centre which has been involved in recordable media). My house is full of Philips gear, and I bought the DVDR-1000 standalone DVD+RW recorder as soon as it came out. I don't know what else I can say to try to convince you that I am not anti-Philips and the multitude of fantastic innovations they have been involved in.

If you can show me a single example of that site acknowledging a weakness in DVD+R, or a strength in DVD-R, I will say no more. Until then, I maintain that its content is one-sided in the extreme, and I don't care who that offends.

DVD-R doing what perfectly well?

Providing a format which allows end-users to record data onto discs that are compatible with the vast majority of DVD playback units? Is that not the basic point of any DVD recording format? What, fundamentally (not in terms of fancy toys but real, substantial differences) separates DVD-R from DVD+R? DVD+R was introduced for purely financial reasons, in the same way that there was no real, fundamental advantage of JVC's VHS or Sony's Beta over Philips's early formats.

But that really is beside the point. If I am wrong in my correction of perceived innaccuracies in DVDPlusRW.org's site, concentrate on those rather than relying on innuendo, please. If you are agreeing that my points are correct, then say so.

If DVD+RW companies offer better prices for more features

Correct, IF. To date the running costs of DVD-R are lower than DVD+R in my experience. Time will tell -- market forces, not one-sided websites.

I can just laugh at anyone who says DVD-R is a standard while DVD+R is not.

I have never said DVD-R is a standard while DVD+R is not. Perhaps you should look up the word defacto in a dictionary. I am saying that NEITHER is the standard yet. Both are standards.

[kjcred1]

link to dictionary.com for any of you who wanted to know the definition of de facto:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=de+facto&r=3

[Kennyshin]

Mr. jase, no other person than you is trying to spend so much time on this issue especially because this has been dealt with thousands of times on many related forums. Whether you want to prove what lines and messages are wrong at DVDplusRW.org site, that is your own problem, not mine. As long as nothing in your posts is something that has not been mentioned at least dozens of times, I just want to point out your entire efforst just seem like a bashing on a site that is dedicated to DVD+RW whatever your motive is.

So someone who questions the motives of a site which universally praises one format over another, always pointing out the positives of one vs the negatives of another, and steadfastly refusing to acknowledge that its preferred format also has its weaknesses, is automatically a fanboy? I'm sorry, but if you genuinely believe that, you have a very strange view of the world!!!

I said you were accusing many people who have not posted anything in this thread. It's you who first said "fanboy" and it's you who twist the facts to suit your own feelings. Whether DVDplusRW.org is true, right, correct, fair, or not, that is completely another matter and I can just say to anyone who doesn't like the site to mind their own businesses.

Providing a format which allows end-users to record data onto discs that are compatible with the vast majority of DVD playback units? Is that not the basic point of any DVD recording format? What, fundamentally (not in terms of fancy toys but real, substantial differences) separates DVD-R from DVD+R? DVD+R was introduced for purely financial reasons, in the same way that there was no real, fundamental advantage of JVC's VHS or Sony's Beta over Philips's early formats.

You seriously believe you don't sound like a marketing someone from Pioneer itself? I seriously believe I am not from Philips and DVDplusRW.org is an independent source of information. Anyway, if you think you are better at presenting the basic facts between DVD-RW and DVD+RW, do it yourself like I have done in my own websites. Nothing can be completely free of bias and disknowledge but I cannot find a site that is so correct in discussing the two competing DVD recordable standards that can publicly accuse another site like DVDplusRW.org of spreading inaccuracies. Some individuals have often done such things since 2001 but none of them I think is any bit fairer.

[jase]

this has been dealt with thousands of times on many related forums.

nothing in your posts is something that has not been mentioned at least dozens of times [...] bashing on a site that is dedicated to DVD+RW

So, I'm not the first (and doubtless won't be the last) to say these things. In other words I'm just taking my place in the queue. And I wonder why that might be...

it's you who twist the facts to suit your own feelings [...] mind [your] own business

Putting opposite spin on established facts is perfectly accepted debating practice when the opposition is doing the same. If you think that's twisting the facts, that's your problem, not mine. But, as someone who has elected himself spokesman for said website has effectively told me to shut my trap and go away, I'll do just that (never let it be said I don't follow orders).

But before I do, just one other thing...

You seriously believe you don't sound like a marketing someone from Pioneer itself?

So that's what it is, corporate jealousy, should have worked that one out from the start -- all the "thousands" (your word) of contributors who think as I do are corporate stooges out to smear DVD+R. How silly of me. I really must keep up

That made me smile. If you could only see the eyes light up at Philips when DVDPlusRW.ORG is brought into the conversation -- they love the idea of not having to spend $$$ on advertising.......