C't test results. burners.

[Scour]

Hi...

[*] all DL+9 results were good (except deficits on layer 1 with LiteOn which should be corrected with newer firmware)
G

LiteOn again uses the user´s for beta testing they bad hardware. Why anyone should buy a writer that has so bad quality on media with a price 15€/1 piece?

Maybe because of

a) ...i can crossupdate my drive from 812 to 832 and the quality is so good... ( ) or
b) ...but i can tweak my firmware to the limit even if the media isn't readable at all... or
c) ...kprobe told me my media is burned perfectly...

Just joking...

Gerd

But think of the people that buy this writer with a old FW. Not everybody knows how you can make an update or know what FW is.

And i don´t know if it´s good that LiteOn manufacture 2-4 drives with different names but same hardware. I think they do it because it´s cheaper than make for every model-name a new drive

[faithfoo]

I am using a LG 4082 drive and

I need DVD RW that is less prone to error; say I back up 1000 files ( overidding all of them everyday from Hard disk to DVD RW ( not using packet writing , but erase and rewrite again )

Is DVD RW + or DVD RW- better in creating less error

** I do not have TY in my country ,,what's the next best option for

1) DVDRW
2) DVD R

[dolphinius_rex]

If you have the LG 4082B, and want a re-writable format that is good quality, use *DVD-RAM* !!

DVD-RAM is 10x better then DVD+RW or DVD-RW in my opinion

[faithfoo]

For RAM writing

I presume Packet writing creates error ( RAM) as often as it does for DVD RW ?

SHould I use NERO or the software supplied by LG to write RAM

CAn Somebody shoe me which are teh options within the software ( boxes to check) & exactly which Nero software for instance ?

[MrWGT]

Hi

@faithfoo: The only thing you'll need is the DVD-RAM driver from LG. With that you can copy files onto your DVD-RAM if the DVD-RAM where a floppy.

The advantages would be:

1) Better safety. This means data integritiy is assured by DVD-RAM if verify is enabled (with LG so far allways true).
2) You can overwrite up to 100.000 times not only 1.000 compared to DVD+-RW

Regards,

Gerd

[faithfoo]

1) can I confirm that DVD RAM does not have the problem/less data corruption present in packet writing for DVD RW ( and it allows drag & drop )

I am overwriting 1000 files on a frequent basis

2) Should I use FAT 32 or UDF 1.5 to format

3) how do you enable verify .**for RAM

[Kennyshin]

Use DVD-RAM if you want to access, edit, add, rewrite, overwrite the discs very often. Use HDD if you want to do everything above more frequently and with larger files.

DVD+RW media were mainly desinged for DVD-Video players rather than for PC data backup and RAM-like access.

[Kennyshin]

Does anybody know how much the machine to test jitter values in CD and DVD recordables? And what else does one need to use the machine? Is it big? Is it difficult to learn to use?

[faithfoo]

TO format RAM

IN over-writing data on a very frequent basis
2) Should I use FAT 32 or UDF 1.5 to format

3) how do you enable verify .**for RAM

[dolphinius_rex]

Does anybody know how much the machine to test jitter values in CD and DVD recordables? And what else does one need to use the machine? Is it big? Is it difficult to learn to use?

Depends on the machine... could be up to $1,000,000 I think

[Kennyshin]

Does anybody know how much the machine to test jitter values in CD and DVD recordables? And what else does one need to use the machine? Is it big? Is it difficult to learn to use?

Depends on the machine... could be up to $1,000,000 I think

Hm... down to what? With one million dollar to spend on a machine, I could probably start my own DVD media production lines.

[MrWGT]

Hi...

With one million dollar to spend on a machine, I could probably start my own DVD media production lines.

And supply the forum members with 16x DVD+/-R with a special price...

Regards,

Gerd

[Kennyshin]

Hi...

With one million dollar to spend on a machine, I could probably start my own DVD media production lines.

And supply the forum members with 16x DVD+/-R with a special price...

Regards,

Gerd

I'll send you all for free in that case, up to one million discs maybe as free samples to review.

Back to the reality, I heard the machine costs about US$30,000. That's too much for a PC device but little for a serious tool for engineer's lab. I don't know if it's made in Germany or in Japan. The guy who told me about all this once worked in Germany and even uses a German nickname on the forum.

[MediumRare]

The latest issue of c't (No. 18/2004, on sale in Europe on Mon.) has a test of 8x DVD media. Since this thread is devoted to burner tests, I put a summary of the results in a new thread (reference here so that it doesn't get lost ).

G

[MediumRare]

The newest issue of c't, No. 20/2004 om sale in Europe now, has a test of slimline DVD burners

They tested 5 drives, 3 of which can write DL+9 media and single layer discs @8x, the other 2 are limited to 4x. They tested them with 4 types SL-media and a Verbatim DL for the drives that support it. DVD results are based on scans by Audiodev.

As before, I'll tabulate the quality index along with the rating (see http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=101936#101936 for a description of this index and the rating). I'll try to answer specific requests for more information as time allows.

Slimline drives are a bit different from the half-height drives that most of us use:

• they rely on cable select rather than jumpers for master/slave configuration
• rotation speed is limited to ca. 6000 rpm (or even less) so that burning times are longer at 4x or 8x than corresponding "normal" drives
• firmware updates are infrequent which may cause problems with coming media, e.g. 16x media will not be recognized. This problem was already apparent with the Toshiba drive in this test: it could not handle 8x media and hence was tested with 4x discs.

Apparently CD quality is not an issue- this was tested with a Plextor Premium and all drives (except the NEC) produced similar low error counts.
Also, all drives with DL-capability burned them well!

The first table contains model and firmware and the c't rating for various categories:

Code: Select all

                       Burn Quality   Speed      Reading       Noise
Model +  Firmware      DVD  /  CD    DVD / CD    DVD / CD  VideoDVD / CD

LiteOn      PSO1          - / ++       0 / 0       0 / ++        ++ / 0
SOSW-852S

NEC         2.22          + / 0        + / 0       0 / -          0 / -
ND-6500S

Pioneer     1.00          - / ++       + / 0       + / 0          + / 0
DVR-K14L

Teac        R.0A          + / ++       - / -       + / +          + / 0
DV-W24E

Toshiba     1030          0 / ++       - / -       - / 0          + / ++
SD-R6372


The second table contains the actual and recommended burning speed for the various media (NO means "don't use"). The second line shows the c't quality index and grade (# means POFs occurred).

Code: Select all

               DVD-R 8X     DVD-R 8x      DVD+R 8x     DVD+R 8x     DVD-R DL 2.4x
               Taiyo Yuden  Mitsubishi    Maxell       Ricoh        Mitsubishi   
               TYG02        MCC02RG20     MAXELL002    RICOHJPNR02  MKM001       
Model

LiteOn          4 / NO        4 / NO        6 / NO       8 / 4x       2.4
SOSW-852S      22 / -      -558 / --#    -148 / --#   -450 / --#     56 / +

NEC             8 / 8x        8 / 8x        6 / 6x       8 / 8x       2.4 
ND-6500S       75 / ++       58 / +        64 / +       70 / +       57 / +

Pioneer         8 / 4x        8 / 4x        8 / 4x       8 / 4x       2.4 
DVR-K14L     -204 / --#    -558 / --#    -481 / --#     28 / 0       62 /+

Teac            4 / 4x        4 / 2x        4 / 4x       4 / 4x
DV-W24E        78 / ++     -173 / --#      73 / +       71 / +

               DVD-R 4X     DVD+R 4x      DVD-R 4x     DVD+R 4x 
               Taiyo Yuden  Mitsubishi    Maxell       Ricoh     
               TYG01        MCC02         MXL RG02     RICOHJPNR01

Toshiba         4 /           4 / NO        4 / 4x       4 / 4x
SD-R6372       76 / ++     -217 / --#      68 / +       34 / 0


Summary:

• The LiteOn drive was the "quietest", read all protected audio discs but was a miserable DVD-writer.
• The NEC was the only drive with consistent 8x quality, but was loud and a mediocre reader. CD's burned at max speed (CAV) had problems in the inner region but were OK @8x.
• The Pioneer drive produced immense errors when the burning speed exceeded 4x (strategy/firmware needs work). Good error correction.
• The Teac did well at 4x; good error correction.
• The Toshiba couldn't handle 8x media. No further firmware updates are planned. It can read DVD-RAM, but not DL media. Slow reader (only 4000 rpm), mediocre error correction.

The next issue of c't, due in 2 weeks, will have a test of 16x burners.

G

[MediumRare]

Well, c't has another DVD-burner test- this time 16x drives. The test is in issue 21/2004 om sale in Europe on Monday (tomorrow). So here is another long post.

They tested 9 drives, but some differ only in firmware:
- Asus and Pioneer (but Pioneer was the "XL" model, hence quieter)
- BenQ, Philips and NuTech
- LiteOn and Teac.
The effects of the firmware are significant!

DVD results are based on Audiodev CATS scans. CD's were spot checked with a Plextor Premium and were all very good except for Philips (which produced errors at > 24x).

They had a close look at the 16x and DL media. All drives burned the Verbatim DL media well, most had problems with Ritek. 16x is very problematic- only 5 of 19 16x burns were readable, and even those would have been better at 12x. The problem is that the highest writing speed is reached in the outer regions where the physical variations of the disc is greatest as well.

It's interesting to look at the 16x speed graphs (apparently CD-Speed Data Disc)- you can readily tell which drives have the same hardware. The weirdest one is the LG which uses ZCLV in 2x steps, but goes from 14x to 10x instead of 16x.

As before, I'll tabulate the quality index along with the rating (see http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=101936#101936 for a description of this index and the rating). I'll try to answer specific requests for more information as time allows.

The first table contains model and firmware and the c't rating for various categories:

Code: Select all

                         DVD Burns
                     Quality     Speed        CD       Reading      Noise
Model +  Firmware      + / -      + / -   Speed/qual  DVD / CD  VideoDVD/CD

Asus        1.09       - / -      + / +      0 / ++    ++ / 0       -- / +
DRW-1604P

BenQ        B7H9       - / 0     ++ / -      + / ++     0 / +        0 / +
DW-1620

LiteOn      BS0A       - / -      - / -      + / ++     + / 0        0 / +
SOHW-1633S 

LG          A300       - / 0      + / 0      + / ++     0 / 0        0 / +
GSA-4160B

NEC         2.16       0 / +      0 / 0      + / ++     0 / 0       ++ / 0
ND-3500A

Nu Tech     G7H9       0 / -      + /--      + / ++     0 / 0        0 / +
DDW-163

Philips     2.2        0 / 0     ++ / 0      + / +      0 / 0        + / +
DVDR1640K

Pioneer     1.10       0 / 0      + / +      0 / ++    ++ / 0       ++ / +
DVR-A08

Teac        B4S2      -- / --     0 / -     ++ / ++     0 / ++       + / 0
DV-W516G

The other 3 table contains the actual and recommended burning speed for the various media (NO means "don't use"). The recommended speed is based on details of the scans, e.g. increased error or jitter rates in the outer (high speed) regions. In some cases, the media deviates from the ideal case, so a speed reduction won't help much. The second line shows the c't quality index and grade (# means POFs occurred).

First DVD+R DL and DVD+R 16x media

Code: Select all

               DVD+R DL     DVD+R DL      DVD+R 16x    DVD+R 16x    DVD+R 16x
               MCC (Sing.)  Ritek (Tw)    Ritek (Tw)   Philips(Tw)  MCC (Sing.) 
               MKM001       Ritek D01     Ritek R04    Philips C16  MCC 004     
Model

Asus             4 /        2.4 /           4 / 2.4x     8 / 2.4x    12 / 4x
DRW-1604P       59 / +     -277 / --#      44 / 0       61 / +     -202 / --#

BenQ           2.4 /        2.4 /          16 / 12x     16 / 12x     16 / 12x
DW-1620         57 / +     -182 / --#    -319 / --#   -270 / --#     49 / 0

LiteOn         2.4 /          - /           4 / 4x       6 / NO      16 / 4x
SOHW-1633S      58 / +     unreadable      45 / 0     -509 / --#   -413 / --#

LG             2.4 /        2.4 /           4 / NO       4 / NO      14 / 12x
GSA-4160B       73 / +     -112 / --#    unreadable   -339 / --#   -309 / --#

NEC              4 /          - /           4 / 4x       8 / 8x      16 / 6x
ND-3500A      -136 / --    unreadable      53 / +       50 / +       -5 / --

Nu Tech        2.4 /        2.4 /          12 / 12x     12 / 12x     16 / 8x
DDW-163         54 / +     unreadable      65 / +       81 / ++     -23 / --

Philips        2.4 /        2.4 /          16 / 12x     16 / 12x     16 / 12x
DVDR1640K       70 / +       22 / -        51 / +     -265 / --#      9 / -

Pioneer          4 /        2.4 /           4 / 4x       4 / 4x      16 / 4x
DVR-A08         66 / +       -6 / --       70 / +       73 / +       34 / 0

Teac           2.4 /        2.4 /           8 / NO       8 / NO      16 / 8x
DV-W516G        49 / +        5 / -      -236 / --#   -753 / --#   -337 / --#

Next DVD-R 8x media

Code: Select all

               Maxell       Verbatim      Traxdata     Plextor   
               Maxell (Jp)  MCC (Tw)      Ritek (Tw)   Taiyo Yuden
               MXL RG03     MCC 02RG20    RITEKG05     TYG02 (Jp)
Model

Asus            12 / 6x      12 / 8x       12 / 8x      12 / 8x
DRW-1604P       56 / +      -12 / --       -1 / --    -293 / --# 

BenQ            10 / NO       8 / 8x        8 / 8x      16 / 12x 
DW-1620       -590 / --#     66 / +        61 / +     -565 / --# 

LiteOn           8 / 4x       8 / 4x        8 / 6x       8 / 8x   
SOHW-1633S    -305 / --#   -533 / --#    -181 / --#     73 / + 

LG               8 / 6x       8 / 6x        4 / 2x       8 / 8x   
GSA-4160B       28 / 0       44 / 0        -7 / --      71 / +

NEC              8 / 6x      12 / 8x        8 / 8x      12 / 8x   
ND-3500A        76 / ++     -19 / --       77 / ++      47 / 0   

Nu Tech         error         8 / 4x        8 / NO       4 / 2x 
DDW-163       unreadable    -54 / --        8 / -       48 / 0   

Philips          8 / NO       8 / 8x        8 / NO       8 / 8x 
DVDR1640K        8 / -       57 / +        14 / -       42 / 0 

Pioneer         16 / 8x      12 / 6x       12 / 6x      12 / 12x 
DVR-A08       -583 / --#    -16 / --       56 / +       75 / ++   

Teac             8 / 4x       8 / 4x        8 / 6x       8 / 4x   
DV-W516G      -528 / --#   -377 / --#      -8 / --    -197 / --# 

Finally DVD+R 8x media

Code: Select all

               Maxell       Verbatim      Ricoh        Plextor   
               Maxell (Jp)  MCC (Tw)      Ricoh (Tw)   Taiyo Yuden
               MAXELL 002   MCC 003       RICOHJPN R02 TYG02 (Jp)
Model

Asus            12 / 8x      12 / 8x       12 / 4x      16 / 6x
DRW-1604P     -312 / --#   -392 / --#     -82 / --#   -468 / --# 

BenQ            12 / 8x       8 / 8x       16 / 12x     16 / 12x 
DW-1620        -44 / --    -242 / --#    -119 / --#   -130 / --# 

LiteOn           6 / 2.4x     8 / 4x        8 / 2.4x     8 / 8x   
SOHW-1633S    -384 / --#     12 / -      -118 / --#     38 / 0 

LG              12 / 6x       8 / 6x       12 / 12x     12 / 8x   
GSA-4160B     -354 / --#   -518 / --#      56 / +       35 / 0

NEC              8 / 8x      12 / 8x        8 / 8x      16 / 12x 
ND-3500A        69 / +       72 / +        53 / +     -167 / --# 

Nu Tech          4 /          8 / 4x       12 / NO      16 / 8x 
DDW-163       unreadable     80 / ++     -388 / --#   -541 / --#

Philips          8 / 8x       8 / 8x        8 / 8x      16 / 12x
DVDR1640K       77 / ++    -128 / --       52 / +       51 / + 

Pioneer         12 / NO      12 / 6x       12 / NO      12 / 8x 
DVR-A08         13 / -     -122 / --#    -133 / --#   -106 / --# 

Teac             8 / 2.4x     8 / 4x        6 / NO       8 / NO   
DV-W516G      -188 / --#   -617 / --#    -152 / --#   -500 / --# 

Some particular remarks:

• LiteOn and Teac showed the poorest writing and best reading properties (almost a tradition )
• Pioneer was the only drive that achieved 4x on DL media
• Philips seems to do best with 16x burns
• NEC had the best overall resulst for 8x media
• LG is faster but pickier with media than NEC (previous tests showed that LG was conservative in writing speed but in return produced reliable results. This doesn't seem to be the case anymore)
• 8x Verbatim "Made in Taiwan" had large radial tracking errors
• 8x TY are best quality, sometime even @12x or 16x
• Verbatim DL "Made in Singapore" is excellent on all drives!
• Ricoh plans to introduce DL media in October. These will be produced with the "Inverse Stack System" in which 2 discs, each with part of the required layers, are glued together. This process is cheaper and has a higher yield than the present "2P" process (with all layers generated sequentially), so this media should be cheaper. However, the optic and thermal propreties vary so that most drives will require firmware updates to accomodate them.

That post was over 4 hours in the making and it's almost 1 a.m. I'm off to bed.

G

[dodecahedron]

thank you kindly for your trouble.
much appreciated !

[dolphinius_rex]

thank you kindly for your trouble.
much appreciated !

Agreed!

Thank you MediumRare for your hard effort and work!!

[MediumRare]

Thanks for the kind words.

It's good to get some feedback- these summaries are a lot of work, and sometimes I wonder if they're being read or if people just stumble over the sticky.

OT: Dodec- you seem to be back to night-time active. Are you in charge of the 4 a.m. feeding?

G

[Halc]

Thanks! I always read your summaries, even though I get c't myself. You just spot things that I don't :)

Looks like the results show pretty much what the 'consumer scanners' have noticed: LiteOn's read well, but can't write for crap. Nec is among the best and Pioneer, BenQ and LG are slightly behind (with tested firmware).

I wonder if they found out about the read problems with 3500 Nec though? They never even mentioned the problems with 2500/2510 as far as I can recall. Still those models have been very problematic for some people.

[dolphinius_rex]

I think with latest firmwares, BenQ, LG, and Pioneer are quickly closing the gap with the NEC 3500... however it is important to remember that the media tested is very limited, and many name brands are not considered at all... and the same with middle and low end stuff.

[MediumRare]

I wonder if they found out about the read problems with 3500 Nec though? They never even mentioned the problems with 2500/2510 as far as I can recall. Still those models have been very problematic for some people.

They mentioned that SL reading performance is greatly improved, but DL's are rather slow (which does result in a quieter drive). DVD error correction was not good- 67% (Pioneer: 100%, LiteOn 96%). The 3500 also has problems reading copy-protected audio CDs.

G

[alexnoe]

21 / 04, i really like that result: Ritek DL media is ultimate crap , i.e. doesn't produce reasonable results on any drive they've tested. I really hope that people like Herrie stop adding support for those discs

BTW, the LG 4120B makes coasters at 12x on verbatim 8x +r printable (fw a110; it is better wit a111, but far from good), but perfect burns on verbatim 8x +r non-printable. Unfortunately, the latest C'T test doesn't make that difference...

[MediumRare]

BTW, the LG 4120B makes coasters at 12x on verbatim 8x +r printable (fw a110; it is better wit a111, but far from good), but perfect burns on verbatim 8x +r non-printable. Unfortunately, the latest C'T test doesn't make that difference...

There are (at least) 2 flavours of MCC 003 8x DVD+R. These can be distinguished by looking at the media block or the "lot" (stamper?) number etched into the bottom of the disc near the dye (this no. doesn't necessarily vary from disc to disc). The older ones have a lot no. ending in X47A and "Rl..c" in the media code:

Code: Select all

00000000 08 02 00 00 A1 0F 02 00 00 03 00 00 00 26 05 3F .............&.?
00000010 00 00 00 00 00 00 03 4D 43 43 00 00 00 00 00 30 .......MCC.....0
00000020 30 33 00 38 23 54 37 15 02 52 6C 02 B4 63 15 15 03.8#T7..Rl..c..
00000030 0B 0A 08 08 01 19 1B 0C 0C 0C 0D 01 00 00 00 00 ................

The newer (and better according to reports at CDFreaks) ones have a lot no. ending in X47B (something like "ZC9667-DVR-X47B") and "Bn..k" in the media code.

I've only used printable Verbatim 8x "Made in Singapore" (I have a Canon i865 ) and have had both varieties. Could you check if this difference explains your varying burns?

G

[alexnoe]

That's not what I mean. According to cdrinfo, the old ones are accepted only as 8x discs by the drive. These are 2 flavors of new ones... my printable discs are X47B, my nonprintable ones as well.