C't test results. burners.

[MediumRare]

I haven't seen the PC-Professionell article, but there is a sense in measuring unburnt discs.

I fully agree that the physical properties of unrecorded media are important. c't always shows such results in their media tests. Here is a scan of part of the results from a c't test of DVD+RW media:

There's real information here: In addition to the graphic representation of the planarity (FE= Focus Error), they give numbers for RRO (=Radial Run Out), PPb (=Push Pull before recording, used for tracking during the recording) and the PPb Disc Variation and explain these quantities and the corresponding limits. So when they give a grade for these properties (in this case a "0" on their scale of 5), we know why.

The PC-Pro article showed nothing like this: They just give an overall index, without explaining how it's determined. The only physical results for all media are for RRO, and these values have no correlation at all with their overall index. Maybe we should just believe this ranking, but I'm a physicist and I want to have the basis for their conclusions available. Obviously the information is there- why don't they show more of it? Instead, they dedicate more than half the article to a discussion of the PI scans, which don't give us any useful info because of the limited and arbitrary testing scope.

Honestly, I much prefer passing on useful information. It really pisses me of when a (normally) serious magazine screws up a test like this!

G

[Halc]

Thanks for the update! I didn't mean to imply that you (MediumRare) didn't think pre-burn scans were useful.

It's just that sometimes our comments can be taken for what they are, hence I was trying to clarify the point.

Isn't the upcoming c't (next issue) supposed to have more about 8x burners as well?

[MediumRare]

Thanks for the update! I didn't mean to imply that you (MediumRare) didn't think pre-burn scans were useful.

It's just that sometimes our comments can be taken for what they are, hence I was trying to clarify the point.

That's what I figured. I still wanted to let off some steam because of the lost information.

Isn't the upcoming c't (next issue) supposed to have more about 8x burners as well?

Yeah, the next issue has the "second generation", including 8x "-" burners. Unfortunately next Sat. is a holiday ("Labour Day"), so I may not get the issue as early as it usually comes. Still, something to look forward to.

G

[Supacon]

I too would be interested in seeing if the LG GSA-4082 is just as good as the GSA-4081... Updates anyone?

[MediumRare]

I too would be interested in seeing if the LG GSA-4082 is just as good as the GSA-4081... Updates anyone?

Have a look at Ian's review:
LG GSA-4082B Super-Multi DVD±RW/RAM

G

[Supacon]

Well, it does look very close. Maybe just SLIGHTLY worse. I almost wonder why LG even bothered with a new version of this drive. I guess a couple of the speeds are a touch better, but it doesn't seem that there's really a huge difference.

Probably the only real difference is the firmware anyways. Anyone ever heard of updgrading a 4081 to 4082?

[Scour]

Drive, FW, writing quality DVD+R/-R

1. LG GSA 4082, A201, +/++

2. Asus DRW-0804P, 1.08, o/++

3. Pioneer DVR-A07 XL, 1.12, o/+

3. Benq DW-822A, B3CC, o/+

4. TDK DVD 880N, 1.31 (NEC 2500 OEM), -/+

5. Toshiba SD-R-5272, 1030, -/o

6. Teac DV-W58GA, U4S2 (Liteon 812s OEM), o/--

7. Liteon SOHW-812S, US0A, -/--

8. HP DVD420i, 1.25 (NEC 2500 OEM), --/--

8. Ricoh MP5308D, 1.B2, --/--



LG is the real best writer here, Liteon, HP and Ricoh are the worst writers you can buy.

[dolphinius_rex]

ouch! look at the NEC 2500a.... but this says nothing of the media used, or the speed burned at.

[Scour]

DVD-R 8x: JVC (Taiyo Yuden), Verbatim

DVD+R 8x: Ricoh, Philips, Ritek R03.8, Verbatim


DVD-RW 4x: Verbatim

[dolphinius_rex]

Okay, I know why the Pioneer didn't do so well on the DVD+R side then... all the Ritek made DVD+Rs only burn so-so... my Optodisc DVD+Rs on the other hand burn a lot nicer. I'm *VERY* surprised that Pioneer doesn't support Ritek's DVD+Rs better though.

[MediumRare]

scour beat me to it this time . my c't just arrive today and I just finished preparing the summary. It has few more details

Since c't did another test of 8x burners and media, this results in another long post!

The latest issue of c't (No. 10/2004) has a test of 10 8x DVD burners with 8 media types (2 8x DVD-R, 1 4x DVD-RW and 5 8x DVD+R). All DVD results are based on scans by Audiodev.

As before, I'll tabulate the quality index along with the rating (see the previous post http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=101936#101936 for a description of this index and the rating). Again, I'll try to answer specific requests for more information as time allows. Maybe scour and halc will jump in too.

General remarks (things I found interesting- YMMV) are listed after the tables.
The first line per drive is the recording speed, the second line contains the quality index and c't rating. I've added a "#" for cases with POF >0.

Code: Select all

'                       DVD-R 8x      DVD-R 8x      DVD-RW 4X
                        Taiyo Yuden   Mitsubishi    Mitsubishi   
                        (JVC)         (Verbatim)    (Verbatim)
                        TYG02         MCC02RG20     MCC01RW4X
Modell +  Firmware                                           

Asus        1.08           8             4             4     
DRW-0840P                84 / ++       72 / +      -239 / --#

BenQ        B3CC Beta      4             4             2.4   
DW-822A                  61 / +        63 / +        20 / -   

HP          1.25           8             8             4     
DVD420i                -252 / --#      -1 / -      -211 / --#

LG          A201           8             8             4     
GSA-4082B                83 / ++       73 / +       -10 / -- 

LiteOn      USOA           8             8             4     
SOHW-812S               -40 / --     -556 / --      -25 / -- 

Pioneer     1.12           8             8             4     
DVR-A07 XL               41 / 0        61 / +       -26 / -- 

Ricoh       1.82           8             8             4     
MP5308D                -101 / --#    -170 / --#      17 / -   

Teac        U4S2           8             8             4     
DV-W58GA                -35 / --     -562 / --#     -26 / -- 

Toshiba     1030           8             8             4     
SDR-5272                 85 / ++     -147 / --#    -123 / --#

TDK         1.31           8             8             4     
DVDRW 880N               80 / ++       23 / -      -180 / --#

(+ Table without firmware so that it doesn't wrap lines)

Code: Select all

'              DVD+R 8x     DVD+R 8x      DVD+R 8x      DVD+R 8x     DVD+R 8x
               Ricoh        CMC           Philips       Ritek        Mitsubishi   
             (Fuji, Ricoh)  (Platinum)    (Philips)  (Teac,Traxdata) (Verbatim)
             RicohjpnR02.8  CMC.MAG.E01.8 Philips.C08.8 Ritek R03.8  MCC 003.8                                                                                       
Modell   

Asus              8             8             4             4             8     
DRW-0840P       46 / 0      -309 / --#      31 / 0        59 / +      -555 / --#

BenQ              8             8             8             8             8     
DW-822A       -361 / --#    -188 / --#      24 / 0        62 / +        64 / 0   

HP                8             8            2.4            8             8     
DVD420i       -526 / --#    -316 / --#    -454 / --#    -507 / --#    -495 / --#

LG                8             8             4             6             8     
GSA-4082B       72 / +        64 / +        68 / +        75 / ++       74 / +   

LiteOn            8             8             8             8             8     
SOHW-812S      -55 / --     -187 / --#      40 / 0      -656 / --#    -652 / --#

Pioneer           8             8             4             8             8     
DVR-A07 XL      59 / +        58 / +        59 / +      -178 / --#      68 / +   

Ricoh             8             8            2.4           2.4            8     
MP5308D        -47 / --     -464 / --#     -25 / --     -117 / --#    -272 / --#

Teac              8             8             8             8             8     
DV-W58GA        64 / +        76 / ++     -612 / --#    -540 / --#    -371 / --#

Toshiba           8             8             4             8             8     
SDR-5272        31 / 0       err / --      err / --     -538 / --#    -300 / --#

TDK               8             8            2.4           2.4            8     
DVDRW 880N      -7 / --       42 / 0        66 / +      -106 / --#    -206 / --#

Some general remarks:

• CD burn quality wasn't mentioned this time
• firmware is not necessarily the newest version (inevitable with the lead times in print magazines). Some newer versions that arrived during the test were partially tested.
• reading speed for single layer DVD's (pressed or burned) varies little among these drives, there are significant differences reading DVD-9 though
• all drives (other than HP) showed good error correction.
• be sure to look at the burning speed before making comparisons- it still varies somewhat from case to case!!
• the Verbatim column for 4x DVD-RW is for a "rewriting cascade" on this -RW media. See c't test results: 4x DVD+RW media for more information on this.

Some particular remarks:

• Asus is based on Pioneer, HP and TDK are based on NEC 2500A and Teac is based on LiteOn
• BenQ's "walking OPC-2" is experimental for - media
• LG had the best overall quality, but wasn't particularly fast
• LiteOn was only drive that wrote all media at 8x, but sometimes dropped to 4x at the end (quality not always good, though). The bit-setting tool (version 1.04) didn't work with Nero
• BenQ and LiteOn read all the copy protected audio discs tried, Asus and Ricoh next to none
• Pioneer has implemented DRT-DM (Distributed Real Time Defect Management) that does what MRW is supposed to and actually works.
• TY DVD-R media were best overall, followed by Ricoh DVD+R. The Philips and CMC media had problems just about everywhere.

The following drives arrived too late for the test: AOpen DRW8800AP, BTC DRW 1108, Optorite DD0405. The NuTech DDW082 was "untestable".
It looks like there's room for another 8x test before the faster burners show up.

G

[Halc]

I also got my copy. My quick summary:

GENERAL
=======

8x writing quality still isn't generally on acceptable level. Far from it.

The only writes I'd buy based on this and previous tests are: BenQ 800A/822A and LG GSA-4082B. Even then I'd be very picky even amongst the so-called "quality media" makers and not just use any media. Well, LG seems to be pretty safe with the media tested this time (and in the previous test). Actually, come to think of it, it is _remarkably_ compatible and produces both very good jitter/asymmetry and error measurement results.


DISCS
=====
TY DVD-R 8x is clearly superior to MCC (Verbatim) DVD-R 8x on low level measures (asymmetry/DC jitter).

MCC 4x DVD-RW 4x is a joke, imho. Don't bother using it for anything critical. Both low level and causal measurements are off the specs

For DVD+R 8x discs I don't think there was a single superior disc.

Philips DVD+R 8x is IMHO, perhaps the best bet generally (of the discs tested here) as all tested drive innards (not rebadges) were able to write very good quality on that disc, with proper firmware.


DRIVES
=====

Firmwares do matter (no surprise there). For example HP DVD420i (Nec ND2500A rebadge) produced crappy results on almost everything. TDK DVDRW 880N (same 2500A innards, different firmware) managed much better results, although far from perfect.

Again, LiteOn LDW-812S turned in some pretty lousy scores on DVD+R media, whereas Teac DV-W58GA (same LiteOn innards) produced much more tolerable score. Both equally useless on DVD-R 8x (and I mean useless) with the tested firmware.

To me it looks also as if LG & BenQ have either the best drives AND/OR the best lead in coming out with most compatible / high quality firmware first. They just work for so much more media than others do.

MUSINGS
=======
All in all, a very welcome and useful test again and also a welcome reminder that kProbe testing in forums has gotten way out of hands. kProbe results are not a universal measure of burn/drive quality nor burned media compatibility. We know that, but we still forget it way too often and take the results for what they are not.

We really need low level measurement data or more different transport/puh/chipset based PI/PIF/PO/POF causal measurements than just LiteOn/kProbe.

I think we are slowly progressing towards crapola-town with dual layer and 16x burning. 8X is still not where it should be qualitywise. If it works for you on your drive, great, but most burns are not within specs generally.

After all the domination LiteOn has had in CD-R burning, it's almost apalling to see how bad the results have consistently been for their DVD drives. They are just pretty much useless (IMHO, of course), regardless of what kProbe readings tell us.

Many discs remain readable, because some drives have such huge jitter tolerance values (e.g. LiteOn/Plextor). On lesser drives, I'd expect various compatibility/read error problems (say PS2, Xbox, DVD set top box, other than major dvd-writers, older dvd-roms, etc).


regards,
halcyon

[the6carrules]

Grabbed 50 pack of Memorex 4x media from best buy. DVD Identifier shows the discs as "RICOHJPN-R01-002".

I've burned about half of them at 4x with the PD Mach 8 drive (really a rebadged BTC 1008IM drive) and have not created one coaster.

I've not been able to try a burn at 8x - Roxio Easy CD/DVD Creator 6 won't let me set it to that speed for some reason. It must detect the media speed or something - not sure.

[MediumRare]

The latest issue of c't (No. 11, 17.5.2004) has a test of the coming Philips DL-capable burner DVDR885P (see this item at the German news site "heise").

This drive will be available at the end of this month (as will its sibling, the Benq DW-830A). The tested firmware T1.4 will modified prior to release.

Writing quality mit the Verbatim DL-media (MKM 001) was good.

The drive sets the Book-Type to "DVD-ROM" by default (can be changed), and that for good reasons. c't tested their discs for compatibility in over 80 drives (the individual drives are noted in the article):

Code: Select all

'                      Recognized     Recognized %
Drive Type    Count   +R/DL    -ROM   +R/DL    -ROM
               
DVD-ROM         20       9      13     45%     65%

Combo-Drive      5       2       2     40%     40%

DVD Burner      20       5      15     25%     75%

DVD-Player      23      18      21     78%     91%

DVD Video       13       0      11      0%     85%
Recorder

Total           81      34      62     42%     77%

In some cases, the drives were able to read the first layer only. As Ian already mentioned, PC drives (particularly burners) have more problems with DL-media than stand-alone players. Hopefully firmware updates will help.

Of note for diagnostic fans (like me): The LiteOn SOHW-812S was able to read the disc, but KProbe 2.1 showed significantly higher error rates for the second layer than for the first (PI Sum 8 layer 1: ca. 1/3 the Audiodev values, layer 2: 50% greater, PO even more, scan speed not specified). This difference is due to the drive.

The DL Audiodev scans are preliminary because Audiodev is apparently still working with Philips to finalize the calibration DVD.

Here is a summary of the media results, all burned at max. rated speeds (see the earlier post for a description of the quality index and rating)

Code: Select all

Media             Code             Quality      PI/PO/POF

Vebatim DL 2.4x   MKM 001           58 / +     26 / 8/ 0  (Layer 1)
                                               46 / 6/ 0  (Layer 2)

Verbatim  8x      MCC 003.8         83 / ++    19 / 3/ 0

Ricoh 8x          Ricohjpn RO2.8    66 / +     29 / 3/ 0

Philips 8x        Philips.C08.8     64 / +     78 /11/ 0

CMC 8x            CMC.MAG.E01.8   -160 / --   915 /28/ 1

Ritek             Ritek R03.8     -218 / --   871 /81/ 1

Other drive properties (I won't repeat specs, just "measurements"):
- relatively quiet (DVD)
- reads all copy protected audio CDs
- does not report C2

G

[jsl]

MediumRare: Interesting post, thanks! Are those compatibility numbers for drives that recognized both layers correctly?

[MediumRare]

MediumRare: Interesting post, thanks! Are those compatibility numbers for drives that recognized both layers correctly?

Yes. The ones that got just the first layer "failed".

G

[XXXXX]

As a new poster, why don't you list the Memorex True Image 8X burner in any tests? It has performed flawlessly with having burned over 1800 Taiyo DVD-R 8x media. 8-10% failure rate with Verbatum DVD+R 8x howerver.

[Ian]

XXXXX, these results are coming from the German magazine C't. You'd have to ask them why they don't test the True 8x.

As it is, the Memorex True 8x is nothing more than a rebadged Pioneer DVR-107D.

[XXXXX]

OK, that explains it. Thanks!

[MediumRare]

Well, there's another DVD test in c't, issue 14/2004 om sale in Europe starting tomorrow. As usual, this results in a long post.

This time they tested 10 drives, 6 of which can write DL+9 media, with 5 types each of + and - media (no RW's this time). DVD results are based on scans by Audiodev.

As before, I'll tabulate the quality index along with the rating (see the previous post http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=101936#101936 for a description of this index and the rating). Again, I'll try to answer specific requests for more information as time allows.

General remarks (things I found interesting- YMMV) are listed after the tables.
The first line per drive is the recording speed (total time for the DVD+R9), the second line contains the quality index and c't rating. I've added a "#" for cases with POF >0, since these will be unreadable at the error.

I'm putting the results in 3 tables: DVD+R9 and overall rating, DVD- and DVD+. The first list shows the drives' full name and firmware version. This is omited in the other tables.

General info, Dual Layer and special cases

Code: Select all

                        Burn Quality  DVD-R DL 2.4x   DVD+R 16x
                        DVD+ / -      Mitsubishi     Philips
                                      MKM001         Philips C16
Model +  Firmware

Aopen       1.5b          - / 0          -
DRW-8880/AAN                           

BenQ        B4A8 Beta     0 / na        45:22
DW-830A                                66 / +

BenQ        BSA9 Beta     - / na        46:15         16x
DW-1600A                               53 / +       -204 / --#

BTC         B218          - / --         -   
DRW-1108 IM                           

LiteOn      VSO1          - / -         45:14
SOHW-832S                              12 / -

LG          A100          0 / +         44:29
GSA-4120B                              69 / +

NEC         2.15          0 / +         42:48
ND-2510S                               68 / +

NuTech      B373          - / -          -   
DDW-082                               

Plextor     1.01          - / 0          -   
PX-712AA                             

Sony        VY02          0 / -         45:14
DRU-700A                               62 / +


DVD+R

Code: Select all

              DVD+R 8X       DVD+R 8x     DVD+R 8x       DVD+R 8x     DVD+R 8x
              CMC            Mitsubishi   Ricoh          Ritek        Taiyo Yuden
              CMC.MAG.E01.8  MCC003.7     RicohJPNR02.8  Ritek R03.8  Yuden0002.2
Model

Aopen             8              8            8              8            8
DRW-8880/AAN  -529 / --#     -521 / --#     18 / 0       -525 / --#   -448 / --#

BenQ              4              8            8              8            8   
DW-830A       -224 / --      -175 / --      66 / +         67 / +       75 / ++

BenQ              8              8           12             na           12   
DW-1600A      -281 / --#      -20 / --    -359 / --#                    65 / +

BTC               8              8            8              8            8   
DRW-1108 IM   -707 / --#     -369 / --#   -375 / --#     -478 / --#     30 / 0

LiteOn            8              4            8              8            8   
SOHW-832S     -205 / --#     -182 / --#    -28 / --       -94 / --       7 / -

LG                6              6           12              6           12   
GSA-4120B       42 / 0         49 / 0     -251 / --#     -456 / --#     81 / ++

NEC               8              8            8              4            8   
ND-2510S         3 / -       -135 / --#     51 / +         76 / ++     -25 / --

NuTech            8              8            8              8            8   
DDW-082       -142 / --#     -312 / --#    -65 / --      -268 / --#     86 / ++

Plextor           8              8           12              8           12   
PX-712AA      -186 / --#       45 / 0     -112 / --#      -80 / --#     -6 / --

Sony              8              4            8              8            8   
DRU-700A      -384 / --#       48 / 0       58 / +         33 / 0       -8 / --


DVD-R

Code: Select all

               DVD-R 8X     DVD-R 8x     DVD-R 8x      DVD-R 8x     DVD-R 8x
               CMC          Maxell       Mitsubishi    Ritek        Taiyo Yuden
               CMC MA       MXL RG       MCC02 (RG20)  Ritek G05    TYG02
Model

Aopen             4             8            8             4            8
DRW-8880/AAN    71 / +      -220 / --#   -535 / --#      79 / ++    -242 / --#

BTC               8             8            8             8            8   
DRW-1108 IM   -300 / --#    -134 / --#   -659 / --#    -199 / --#   -325 / --#

LiteOn            8             4            8             8            8   
SOHW-832S     -327 / --#    -428 / --#   -460 / --#      21 / -     -239 / --#

LG                4             8            8             4            8   
GSA-4120B       56 / +        62 / +       44 / 0        49 / 0       62 / +

NEC               4             8            8             4            8   
ND-2510S        76 / ++       47 / 0       46 / 0        71 / +       66 / +

NuTech            6             4            6             6            6   
DDW-082       -540 / --#     -48 / --#   -480 / --       75 / ++    -443 / --#

Plextor           8             8           12             8           12   
PX-712AA       -97 / --#      73 / +      -23 / -       -22 / --      54 / +

Sony              8             4            8             8            8   
DRU-700A       -77 / --#      35 / 0     -315 / --#     -27 / --      37 / 0


Some general remarks:

• CD burn quality wasn't mentioned. This no longer seems to be an issue.
• firmware is not necessarily the newest version (inevitable with the lead times in print magazines).
• be sure to look at the burning speed before making comparisons- it still varies from case to case and has significant influence on quality.
• all DL+9 results were good (except deficits on layer 1 with LiteOn which should be corrected with newer firmware)
• the "Book Type" is important for DVD+R9 reading compatibility (NEC sets to DVD-ROM by default, LG cannot be changed from "DVD+R DL", others have tools).
• the new "inverse stack" fabrication method which is due to replace the current 2P (Photo Polymerization) method for dual layer media next year will (probably) require new firmware and (possibly) new hardware.

Some particular remarks:

• Aopen is based on NEC 2500A, Sony is based on LiteOn.
• The BenQ drives were prototypes. The DW-830A is identical to the Philips DVDRW885K and aparently will not be sold in Europe (officially). The DW-1600A needs more work. 16x burns were not faster than Plextor 12x burns.
  These drives are "+" only. The planned upgrade to allow writing "dash" media should be taken with care: the corresponding option for the DW-800A was only rudimentary and the dual mode firmware was not updated after 1 or 2 times.
• The worst drive overall is BTC. It, AOpen and NuTech are OK at 4x, but not faster.
• The best drive overall is LG, mainly because of the lower writing speeds. As ususal, LG uses conservative burning speeds so that the overall quality is good, but the speed isn't the fastest. No DVD-RAM were made- no 5x media available.
• The most advanced drive is Plextor. It is the fastest reader in the test and comes with Plextools for speed control and quality tests. New firmware should help improve the writing quality.
• AOpen had drastic problems in the second zone (6x) and is really only useable at 4x.
• Sony / LiteOn have some problems with +R media in the inner zones (4x,6x). The BLER rate drops abbruptly when the burning speed goes to 8x.
• The effects of firmware versions are apparent in comparing LiteOn with Sony (newer, better). A newer firmware for the LiteOn arrived during the test, but was not tested.
• BenQ, LiteOn NuTech and Plextor read (almost) all the copy protected audio discs tried
• TY DVD+R media were best overall, (12x with LG and Plextor) followed by Ricoh DVD+R. The RiteK and CMC media were the worst. MCC +R had significant problems in the outer regions, with increasing PI. This seems to be a quality problem since it is apparent with all drives

There was also a comparison of quality testing methods (KProbe 2.1, CD Speed 3.0, Plextools). I'll post on this later after I've had a chance to play with my new toy a bit more.

G

[Gooberslot]

It looks like, with the exception of the TY +R media, the new LG doesn't have as good of writing quality as the old one. The results of the Ricoh with all drives was also disappointing. I thought Ricoh was quality media.

[MrWGT]

Hi...

It looks like, with the exception of the TY +R media, the new LG doesn't have as good of writing quality as the old one. The results of the Ricoh with all drives was also disappointing. I thought Ricoh was quality media.

The c't magazine tested the firmware A100 of the LG GSA-4120. I own the drive by my own and i can confirm that there are media compatibility problems (only 6x burn, high PI with Nero cd-dvd speed and DW822) with firmware A100 burned media.

But with A101/A102/N0AD the things have changed. All 8x media burn now 8x and the PIs are low with nero cd-dvd speed. And the firmware N0AD burns all DVD+R with booktype DVD-ROM (also DVD+R DL) so the playability of DVD+R DL is much better.

Regards,

Gerd

[Scour]

[*] all DL+9 results were good (except deficits on layer 1 with LiteOn which should be corrected with newer firmware)
G

LiteOn again uses the user´s for beta testing they bad hardware. Why anyone should buy a writer that has so bad quality on media with a price 15€/1 piece?

[MrWGT]

Hi...

[*] all DL+9 results were good (except deficits on layer 1 with LiteOn which should be corrected with newer firmware)
G

LiteOn again uses the user´s for beta testing they bad hardware. Why anyone should buy a writer that has so bad quality on media with a price 15€/1 piece?

Maybe because of

a) ...i can crossupdate my drive from 812 to 832 and the quality is so good... ( ) or
b) ...but i can tweak my firmware to the limit even if the media isn't readable at all... or
c) ...kprobe told me my media is burned perfectly...

Just joking...

Gerd

[dolphinius_rex]

those last 2 were a little too true...