Not happy about being a guinia pig!

by **monopoly** on Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:16 pm

I have come to the sad conclusion that some of us (maybe most) have been used as Guinia Pigs in testing products for Plextor and other "Rush to Market" Vendors where actual speed claims are nothing short of Misrepresentation and/or Fraud. This forum along with others on the net are full of people that have purchased new burners for the speed that is claimed, only to find that it is hap-hazard, impossible to obtain, or inconsistent.

I have gone through three 708A drives, several Firmware updates within as many weeks and countless DVD+R Media with only once achieving a 8X DVD+R burn - and even that was in a test run - certainly not in any real world burning experience!

I feel duped and angry - and I feel let down by Plextor. I have spent significant funds to buy various media, only to find that the media they recommend doesn't work in the burners they "rushed to market" with.

I am sure there will be some of you that are happy with the Plex 708A, but I think you are few and far between, as compared to those of us unable to fetch the claims they put forward.

I understand about "new" technology and all that, but the R&D should have been done on their dime, not the customer's!

Unless Plextor fixes this shortly, I will certainly pick another company to honor my dollars with.

by **aviationwiz** on Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:35 pm

Your going to be a guinea pig for any new product on the market, regardless of the manufacturer. It is not just Plextor.

When you bought the PX-708A, you knew, or should have known if you didn't do your research, that it wouldn't work perfectly at first, and that the price would drop after release.

Have you ever thought at first that the media you are trying to write at 8x is really 4x media!

Why don't you wait until real 8x media comes out, then it will work at 8x.

by **Impulse** on Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:01 pm

I'm sorry to hear that you've had such a negative experience. Although it has been said that Plextor's tech support is sometimes lacking, I would give them a call and let them know your frustration and see if they will replace the drive for you. Even with a company with a reputation as good as Plextor's, there are bound to be some drives that don't work as advertised. Thankfully, my own drive has worked perfectly, ever since I updated to the 1.03 firmware.

I'd just give tech support a try and see if they will replace the drive for you. Aviationwiz is right though...with any brand new, hot off the presses hardware, you are going to be a guinea pig no matter what company you buy from since the technology is so new. This isn't just in the hardware realm of computers though...look at all the computer games that have patches available for download on the day of release! It's crazy, but it's a fact of life in today's computer world. Heck, just look at all the security patches available for Windows, all the updates for any office suite software...we're all guinea pigs.

by **dodecahedron** on Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:07 pm

that's bull.
Plextor advertises this drive as being capable of 8x burn on selected media.
no amount of "it's new technology" or "it's really 4x rated media" is any excuse at all.

while being a realist, and knowing that things wouldn't work well to begin with, that's no excuse and no justification for a company that releases a product that doesn't live up to it's advertised capabilities.

and lest you think, aw, that i'm anti-Plextor, well you're wrong.
my statements apply equally to Lite-On with their 411 drive and LG with their GSA-4040B, both of which have (had?) issues with -R/W media.

by **NUT ek** on Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:11 pm

Hey its better than being a GERBAL ......

btw I to was a guinea pig but i new that when i gambled and got my self a Nu-Tek DDW-081 DVD+RW 8X Burner.

This was one of the first 8X burner out there but not at the price of Plextors drive.

My decision was purely price and speed, I could not see the value of paying double for what I believed to be the better drive, but as you can see paying lotsa dollars for gear sometimes does not equate to having the best.

The results I got from my 1 and only 8X burn on the media supplied with my drive (Verbatim DVD+R 4X) were absolutely fantastic, the speed and the k-probe results alone were enough for me to believe I got a damm good buy for my dollars.....but who am I to tell you all whats best for everyone.

I have been sifting thru heaps of forums to find that everyone is having problem with all the popular drives owt there, they either dont do what they said they would do or they just wont do anything, so buyer beware, do your research and read, read, read.

I will leave you with just one thought:

The speed that new technology is coming out is incredible, so dont feel bad if you are treated like a guinea pig, we all are at some stage, so why pay big dollars for the privelage. Wait until the technology is proven and then go shopping or if you are like me, buy cheap, learn about it, then if the need is there buy the best with your hard earned dollars.

by **aviationwiz** on Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:42 pm

NUT ek wrote:The results I got from my 1 and only 8X burn on the media supplied with my drive (Verbatim DVD+R 4X) were absolutely fantastic, the speed and the k-probe results alone were enough for me to believe I got a damm good buy for my dollars.....but who am I to tell you all whats best for everyone.

I have been sifting thru heaps of forums to find that everyone is having problem with all the popular drives owt there, they either dont do what they said they would do or they just wont do anything, so buyer beware, do your research and read, read, read.

1. If you've only done writing at 8x once, then how can you really say how good the drive is? If drive owners judged the drive off of one burn, then everyone would love every drive. LOL.

2. Why are people having problems with popular drives? Because they are popular, LOL. This goes for Lite-On and Plextor I'd say. People have problems with them, because more people have them, hence the more area for a problem.

by **rdgrimes** on Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:48 pm

No question that the drive makers are pushing things a bit with speeds. But you can't ignore the media makers either. When these drives are being designed and developed, the media available is "experimental" media provided by the makers to the drive makers. The media that gets sold on the shelf is not the same stuff. Should the drive makers wait 6 months or a year for "real" media? Good question. If they don't release the drives and create a demand for the media, the media makers might not ever get around to making it. We're still waiting for really good, cheap 4x media in most areas. Anybody seen any 32x CDRW media?
And how much do you want to pay for this "new and improved" 8x media? It may not be possible to make it, and 12x, 16x media on current production lines. $5 for a DVDR sound right? Who knows. :cry:

by **eliminator** on Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:54 pm

Hopefully, by the time 12x & 16x burners come out, the 8x media will show up... and don't even get me started on 24x & 32x cdrw media..! :roll:

by **RJW** on Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:26 pm

Sorry to say but I don't think it's fair to judge a drive on 8x burning with 4x media.
So far Plextor and Nutech have given a list of media that might do it.
Now the media is really pushed to it limits when writing at 8x so it has to be in excellent condition and so does the drive.

Plextor and Nutech could only go wrong. Just like any companny.
LIte ON 811S does not support 8x burning on 4x media. And now people are saying why release the drive if there is no 8x media and the competition has the future so why doesn't this one have it.
With Nutech and Plextor I hear people saying well it supposed to burn 8x on my 4x media since it isn't doing it allways the drives is bad.

So you can't release a 8x drive with out being blamed unless you also a disc manufacturer (RICOH and Pioneer and Sony are I think the only ones )

Plextor and Nutech knew that MCC and Ricoh could not launch 8x media at the release time of the burner. . So that's why decided to do some optimalisation for 4x media to be burned at a higher speed.MCC, Ritek, Ricoh are very close to releasing there 8x media however.

Well if it's up to mediatek and the taiwanese manufcturers we will get 12x and 16x burners prety soon. However it's a question how good they will support the new dual format.

by **VEFF** on Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:04 pm

I am sorry you have had a hard time achieving 8X burn speeds, but "fraud" is a pretty strong accusation, especially when most of us have been able to burn at 8X to Memorex, Verbatim and TDK 4X +R media.

I own two 708A drives and have been able to burn to Verbatim, Memorex and TDK 4X +R at 8X.
I have yet to burn a single coaster with either one of the drives when using Nero or Stomp.

The ONLY problem I have experienced is that there are sometimes slowdowns (from 8X to 4X), usually near the very end of the burn, due to difference in media quality from one disc to the next, even in the SAME batch.
That isn't so surprising, since the media is only rated for 4X.
Maybe Plextor should have said there might be slowdowns, but I think all in all they have put out a great burner that exceeded my expectations, and that of others, see the cdrlabs review for example.

Being able to burn at 8X has saved me a lot of time, while allowing me to use $1 Verbatim 4X +R blanks and $1 + tax Memorex 4X blanks (bought on sale after coupons etc., NO rebates).
8X media will no doubt start off costing more, so being able to write to 4X media at 8X is a significant benefit IMO...

It may not be perfect, but I think "guinea pigs" is a bit extreme.
Besides, whenever a new product comes out, there is always a chance it won't be perfect out of the box (e.g. Sony DRU-500A which had (very) rough start with media compatibility).

I think Plextor has done a very good job with this drive:
- It can write at 8X to cheap Verbatim and Memorex 4X media.
- My 8X DVD video burns all play as smoothly as 1X burns on my home
DVD players.
- No coasters (used only +R so far) at all.
- Quiet operation

As others have said, 4X media is NOT 8X media, so you can't expect the drive to be perfect at 8X.
That being said, most of the time the drive doesn't slow down much if at all when burning at 8X: 8 1/2 (or less) minute burn times at 8X for a full disc on 4X media are pretty darn good IMO...

I am not biased towards or against Plextor. These are my own real world observations after burning quite a few discs with the 708A.

by **bob11879** on Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:58 pm

As dodecahedron says, Plextor says it will work at 8x with "selected media". Plextor says that the drive will work at 8X with their recommended media, but since it is still 4x media, you won't get a guarantee that ALL 4x from a vendor will work at 8x. Just like you get lemons in a CD-R spindle, and some 52X CD-R just won't get up to that speed because some of the media is garbage, you'll get variations in lot to lot or even within the same spindle.

You never said what media you were using. Kinda harsh to judge a failure to write at 8x when you might be using the cheapest garbage available to make that judgement

by **monopoly** on Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:14 pm

The media I use(d) is:

TDK 4X in both the 15 and 100 Spindles, Verbatim 4X DataLife and DataLifePlus singles, 15 and 30 Spindles, and Memorex 4X singles. All this media shows RICOHJPN01. Even the Plextor DVD+R (Yuden) failed to burn at 8X.

I have tried this on three different 708A writers, with various 1.01, 1.02 and the 1.03. Most consistent was the 1.03; but not at consistent 8X.

Just the fact that Plextor has released four Firmware versions in almost as many weeks (along with one Hardware mod) for "trying" to support presentday 4X media is a dead giveaway at releasing a product prior to maturity. Some may think this is Plextor doing better enhancements to the Firmware, when in fact it is Plextor 'also' trying to get stable Firmware - which should have been done in the first place. The Yuden media (that Plextor uses) is not even available in the US according to Chian at TY in CA.

Yes, I have talked to Plextor - I can return the drive (at my expense) and receive a 'refurbished' replacement. Also not guranteed - like a Pig-in-a-Poke.

Accepting something that might not be perfect out of the box (or as advertised) is the same as accepting a new spec'ed and advertised 15K SCSI 36GB that can only do 10K or with only 18GB capacity. It works, but just not as expected or advertised. Come on, be realistic.

And, why should anyone wait for 'certified' 8X media to arrive. This drive was released to do 8X on 4X media - in a 4X world. If Plextor got consistent 8X on either special 4X or 8X (pre-release enginneering) samplings, and then released to the public a hyped up and advertised claim of 8X when only 4X media is available, then that is simply NOT real world and IS misrepresentation.

My history with Plextor products is quite long and numerous. Almost 60 Plextor Drives have been personally purchased for either self indulgence or customer machines. I have only had trouble with the claims of the 708A.

I can see from several of the responses to this thread that I am not the only one who feels this way. I thank them for their honest assestment and responses.

by **Ian** on Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:27 pm

I'll throw my 2 cents in here. As many of you have found out, PoweRec is very sensitive when writing to some 4x media at 8x. The slow downs have been one of the biggest complaints so far. Couldn't they make it less sensitive or disable it altogether?

by **wicked1** on Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:31 pm

monopoly wrote:I have come to the sad conclusion that some of us (maybe most) have been used as Guinia Pigs in testing products for Plextor and other "Rush to Market" Vendors where actual speed claims are nothing short of Misrepresentation and/or Fraud. This forum along with others on the net are full of people that have purchased new burners for the speed that is claimed, only to find that it is hap-hazard, impossible to obtain, or inconsistent.

I have gone through three 708A drives, several Firmware updates within as many weeks and countless DVD+R Media with only once achieving a 8X DVD+R burn - and even that was in a test run - certainly not in any real world burning experience!

I feel duped and angry - and I feel let down by Plextor. I have spent significant funds to buy various media, only to find that the media they recommend doesn't work in the burners they "rushed to market" with.

I am sure there will be some of you that are happy with the Plex 708A, but I think you are few and far between, as compared to those of us unable to fetch the claims they put forward.

I understand about "new" technology and all that, but the R&D should have been done on their dime, not the customer's!

Unless Plextor fixes this shortly, I will certainly pick another company to honor my dollars with.

Amen man thats EXACTLY how I feel with my Plextor I am on my second one and many disks blown later.This is the only DVD writer I have ever owned that can blow half the disks regularly.None of my others ever make a coaster.

by **MonteLDS** on Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:47 pm

i am not surprised, I have yet to seen a flawless drive. it's like an airport, expect delays

by **aviationwiz** on Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:53 pm

wicked1 wrote:Amen man thats EXACTLY how I feel with my Plextor I am on my second one and many disks blown later.This is the only DVD writer I have ever owned that can blow half the disks regularly.None of my others ever make a coaster.

I really need to step in there. You are a regular here, and I KNOW you knew that it wouldn't work perfectly, or maybe not even well. How can you expect a brand new drive to work flawlessely, LOL.

by **VEFF** on Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:47 am

I am still not sure why several people mention having problems with coasters.
I have used Stomp RecordNow Max 4.5 and Nero 6.0.0.11 with both of my 708A drives on two Windows XP Pro PCs, both with AMD CPUs (1.2 GHz TBrid and 2.1 GHz XP 2600+) and both with FIC (AD11 and AM37) mobos, and haven't had a single problem with coasters when using either Nero or Stomp, with ALL firmwares, even 1.00

I really think it is due to one of the following rather than the drive or media, since we are all using the same drive and have basically tried/used the same media:
- version of software used
- a conflict with other burning software or packet writing software
- virus scanner, screen saver, or other tasks running (in the background).
- mobo chipset and/or not using latest IDE drivers
- OS and SP used
- any other number of possible problems such as drivers for other devices causing problems, or conflicts with other hardware.

by **NoLimit** on Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:18 am

i don't know why everyone is talking about problems with coasters.i was one of the first people who got this drive.

i have used the CHEAPEST media i could find on the planet which i got from china.

10 dvd-r (0.15 USD each) : those all were burnt and played successfully on all my dvd-roms and my brother's Sony PS2.

i have used other various types of media DVD-R, DVD+RW (CMC) DVD+R (RICOHJPN) and TY.

no single coaster till now.i've been always happy with my plextor drives and i love this drive.

by **aviationwiz** on Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:51 am

Same here. I was the first one here to get the burner (paid extra for 2nd day air) I've used all the firmware variants, and my only problems have been PoweRec slowing down my 8x burn (which is good, as I later learned it was to conserve quality) and my first couple DVD+R burns with Nero 6.0.0.15, and we all know that that was a software issue.

by **monopoly** on Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:15 am

For the record and to belay a few 'darts':

I never said anything about having coasters. The only coasters I might have had (one or two) were immediately after upgrading firmware and forgot to complete a second re-boot. 'Coasters' is not the issue (altho it could be part of it). This thread is solely and purely concerned with the Plex 708A not consistently performing at (or not obtaining) 8X on 4X prescribed and 'selected' media - as enumerated in my above posts.

Software used is CopytoCD and Stomp RecordNow Max v4.5 with the v4.18/5.00 engine. Nero was 'never' installed, nor will it be (altho the Nero CD-DVD Speed program is installed). My machines are pure Intel, no AMD. My Chipset drivers are up-to-date and the two machines are Abit IC7-G 3.2 (Permanent) and an ASUS P4PE 2.4 (Testing). The IMAPI CD-Burning COM Service is Disabled. The 708A is set as Master on the Secondary IDE Channel without a Slave. OS is XP Pro/SP1.

AV has been tested both enabled and disabled, no ScreenSaver activity or other tasking that would affect DVD speed or the IDE Bus. This machine is not CPU hindered or Task interrupt burdened.

All that out of the way, and back to the original complaint, if you will.

It is again also obvious that feelings run high concerning this issue. Some of the experienced and more permanent members here also have some problems and feelings as I. And again, I thank you for your upright and steadfast support.

Possibly PowerRec can be loosened up as Ian and others have suggested.

by **wicked1** on Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:12 am

aviationwiz wrote:
wicked1 wrote:Amen man thats EXACTLY how I feel with my Plextor I am on my second one and many disks blown later.This is the only DVD writer I have ever owned that can blow half the disks regularly.None of my others ever make a coaster.

I really need to step in there. You are a regular here, and I KNOW you knew that it wouldn't work perfectly, or maybe not even well. How can you expect a brand new drive to work flawlessely, LOL.

Because in the past Plextor have always been VERY high quality drives and this new drive of theirs that costs quite a nice chunk of change you would expect pretty damn good performance right?I think the fact that its the buggiest drive I have ever owned and the fact that I wasnt just having issues with certain media it was ALL DVD-R but the DVD+R worked fine.They really pissed me off when I burn almost all dvd-r's and Plextor support which again used to be the bomb didnt have any answer other than to RMA the drive.This is poor support in my eyes.Plextor has turned me sour towards them.I hope they lose alot of sales due to a much cheaper drive doing the same thing with maybe less issues to boot would be great.BTW I didnt return my Plextor I just RMA it.The last one I have gotten and flashed to 1.03 has really helped.It is now burning half the disks I own albeit slower than my Pioneer A06 ( which is almsot a 1/3 the price)I still have this deep down hope that Plextor will really bust ass and make this drive freaking unbelievable with alot of serious firmware upgrades because I think physically its a very capable unit just the damn firmware sux.
Wow I Have been wanting to say that to aviationwiz for a long time.Dont take offense but I really get iritated with your posts about the godlike staus of Plextor.

by **aviationwiz** on Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:23 am

If the A06 were just as young as the 708, you would be a guinea pig there as well. What media did you try and burn? My Memorex/TDK DVD+R all works fine, most at 8x, some only at 4x (low quality Memorex crap) All of the DVD-R's I have tried to burn work out great, they are Fuji TY 4x. If you are using cheap media, then that is hardly Plextor's fault. DVD-R has many lower quality manufacturures out there than DVD+R. Need I say more than Princo as far as low quality DVD-R goes.

Considering most people buy thier media in retail stores, and that stuff works fine as most is higher quality TY, MCC, etc. disks, this drive would work great for an average user.

by **dodecahedron** on Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:39 am

wicked1 wrote:...the godlike staus of Plextor.

that's good!

by **dodecahedron** on Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:43 am

i say, why don't you want to be a guinea pig?

i think being a guinea pig is great! and you can take it from me. i have 2 right now, and have had more over the years since i was a kid (right now i remember 4 more but i'm not sure if i lost count, and that's not counting lots of baby-guinea-pigs

).

they're real cute!
and not a bad life at all.
just laze in the cage on your sawdust and hay, no worries, no cares. food delivered to you regularly, and sex whenever you want it (assuming you've got a female guinea pig in your hutch with you

)
quite a good life really

by **treemana** on Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:26 am

avaitionwiz wrote:Oh yeah, Plextor Support has an attitude problem, they are trying to say it is my media's fault, when, in reality, there is a problem with the 1.02 firmware that need's to be fixed...

Although this quote is from another thread, PX-708A Problems, Return of Slow-Down in a different way..., I just wanted to show that avaitionwiz can berate Plextor when he feels it's appropriate.

So, not all of his posts refer to Plextor's "God-like" status. (I few might, but not all!

)