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how can i burn a CD+G ( karaoke CD )

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how can i burn a CD+G ( karaoke CD )

Postby loco21 on Wed Mar 12, 2003 2:31 pm

hi everyone, i dunno if im posting my topic in the right category. anyway

i have a Karaoke CD, & i wanna make a copy of it.. but the problem is. my dvd drve ( aopen 1648A ) thinks its a AudioCD. same thing with my burner ( LG GCE-8320B ).

I think the burner doesnt support CD+G.. but is there a way to copy these Kareoke CDs!!

thank you!!
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Postby cfitz on Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:13 pm

A deceptively difficult and messy subject, probably only because not too many people do it. Read these and see if they help:

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=7556
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 1452#31452
http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=7905

http://www.mtu.com/basics/karaokecdr.htm
http://www.goldenhawk.com/faq_body.htm#cdg
http://www.dartpro.com/support/devices.asp#CDGdevices

If all you want to do is copy a CD-G plus disc, you may be able to do it with a DAO-96 raw copy using something like BlindWrite or Alcohol 120%. I haven't tried.

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Postby loco21 on Wed Mar 12, 2003 6:30 pm

so hold on.. let me get this straight.. i might be able to make a copy of the Kareoke disk if i put the option RAW-DAO 96 & make a burn on the fly ( CD to CD )??

if so,, i'll give it a try!!

& thanks cfitz
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Postby cfitz on Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:36 pm

Not with Nero, since Nero doesn't read the subchannels when copying. But if you use something like BlindWrite, Alcohol 120% or Clone CD you may be able to. I was able to succcessfully copy a karaoke CD on a Memorex 48MAXX (LiteOn LTR-48246S) using Alcohol 120%. They even have a preset for karaoke discs.

By the way, your drives think it is an audio CD because it is, essentially. The karaoke lyrics are recorded in the subchannels, separate from the main audio data. So to a conventional player or player software, it looks and works like a regular audio CD.

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Postby CameraMan on Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:44 am

I ripped a large CD+G collection a few months ago (236 discs). I used three systems to do it (only had discs for 1 evening). My drives were two LG 8400B and an LG 8240B. These drives can read & write the discs. But as said before, watch that sub-channel stuff.

I used Alcohol 120% to rip them into image files.
Then took CDRWIN, mounted the image files to a virtual drive, and ripped each track, resulting in a 30mb (or so) per song .bin file. (I didn't RIP the discs with CDRWIN because it was slow like anything)

THEN I took a tool (can find the link if needed) and converted the .bin file to a .mp3 & a .cdg file (you can batch a whole directory for this).

The finals file sizes were 3mb or so for a .mpg, and the .cdg files ran 1mb to 3mb in size. .cdg files compress really nice (80% or more).


So with 236 CD+G discs, the end result was 15 CD-R discs (with all the.cdg files archived). And there they sit.

There is an .mp3+cdg plugin for WinAmp that auto-loads the .cdg file and opens up a resizable graphics window. Worked really good.

I did have a few problems ripping the discs. They were in really bad
shape. The early ones were scratched all to hell. They were rental discs, just horrible. I would be embarrased to give those to people. Because of the scratches, the graphics are really messed up.

Audio it seems, has error correction, so the end .mp3 files all sounded just fine. The ripping had error correction on, but that only checks for audio. The sub-channel stuff was read as it was read. The early discs were messed up bad, the later discs (that have seen less rentals) were in much better shape and came out the best.

I think about half the .cdg files came out bad. I tried different players, and they all showed the errors. One thing I didn't have at the time was a true CD+G Karaoke player, I can't say how IT would have handled the scratched discs.

I was able to make a CD+G disc with Alcohol 120% and my LG 8240B. I then ripped THAT disc and compared it to my original image , and it was 100% bit for bit. So I have to assume the damaged original graphic channel was present on the discs I rented.

You really gotta know the quality of the graphics on the discs. I think in those 236 discs, there was at least 22 different publishers. There was RCA, SuperStar, Panasonic, Hit Makers.. god, it was all over the place. Some of the graphics were really pleasing to look at, some were made with no style at all. Or worse.. BLUE backgrounds and RED text.

Once you have these two files (the .mp3 & .cdg) you can do alot. Like I said, there is a WinAmp plugin, there is also a program that creates an AVI (in whatever video format you want.. MPEG, DIVX). You can create VCD discs in that manner, and get quite a few on a disc, since the video bit rate can be quite low (if your player supports it).

CD+G is, I think, on the way out. Most newer stuff is coming out as VCD or DVD.

So, my thoughts and such on the subject.
-John

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Postby cfitz on Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:03 am

Very informative post, John. Thanks for taking the time to describe your experiences.

It would seem that VCD and even more so DVD would be better suited to karaoke than CD+G. Do you know if commercial karaoke players at the consumer level are transitioning to VCD and/or DVD?

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Postby CameraMan on Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:01 am

My buddy had thoughts about expanding his music biz to include karaoke rentals (it's huge out in the country where we get most of our social gigs). So he bought a karaoke player off Ebay, they said it would play CD+G discs, but it doesn't. It does have two 1/4 inch mic inputs on the front with some dials.

I'm not impressed with it. For what he paid ($75 USD plus shipping, so.. $150 CAD) it's nothing special. Does play VCD and SVCD/DVD.

He's looking at a VCD option right now, but I would rather continue using the PC's we use now (all MP3 based, ripped from our subscription service). The PC's work just fine, we have history with them. All we need to do is add a cheapy PCI video card for the graphic window and we're set.

I've got a Norcent DP-300 that plays just about anything MPEG I throw in to it. If we add a small mixer to that, then it makes a good VCD-Karaoke player system. It doesn't play CD+G.

I've only seen two CD+G players (well, DVD players that also support the format) and I'm not impressed. The CD+G screen size is something like 240x112 (not 100% sure, but it's less than VCD) and when you see the graphics on a TV, there are overscan issues to worry about.

A normal TV show doesn't put graphics or anything important around the edges of the screen. With CD+G, you see text and stuff right up to the edges. The player needs to UNDER-SCAN the image for you to read them.

So just because a player supports it, it might not display it right. Don't count on something in the menu to help you out either.

When I went full-screen with that WinAmp plugin, I couldn't read all the text (video was going out to a TV). I re-booted and changed the BIOS to output video in UNDER scan mode, and voila, perfect.

I'll add that even ONE screwed up bit in the .cdg file can result in the whole thing being useless. Suppose that bit is part of the timing info right at the start... play music for N seconds before you display the first screen. Well, one bit can change it from 1 second to 5 or 10... so everything else after is mis-timed. Or say it's in the middle of a colour pattern command. Bang, black background with BLACK text.

The info in a .cdg file is not TEXT, it's a bit stream of pixels. Pixels that make up the words. There is no FONT commands.

So you gotta keep those CD+G discs is really good shape. If you treat them as coasters, they become coasters.
-John

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Postby cfitz on Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:13 am

Thanks John. Sounds like the general lack of interest in CD+G is well deserved. There are better alternatives out there.

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Karaoke cd-gs

Postby pcelf on Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:52 am

I've been able to successfully burn and compile karaoke cd-gs for sometime. I've been using Dart cdrecorder 4.1 and an HP 9300i cd-rw.
I just picked up a Liteon 52-24-52 cd-rw and Cdrecoder doesn't see it to be able to read or write cd-gs. So I guess I'll just have to use my HP. Unfortunately, my HP doesn't have burn proof or smart x or any of that stuff so I have to just sit and watch as the burner does it's thing but at least it does it. And here in Washington, cd-gs are pretty much still the norm for karaoke.
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Postby big_al on Fri Apr 18, 2003 1:10 pm

i have a lite-on LTR 40125S and after many hours (or should i say days) of searching for a prog to copy my CD+G karaoke discs ive finaly found one. discjuggler from www.padus.com you download the demo then buy(i use the word BUY lightly :lol: if you know what i mean) the full version after the first burn because it only does one disc. well thats my prob sorted for the first half now i would like to know does anyone know how to play the karaoke discs on PC without changing the formats to AVI and MPEG and all that jazz? all i want is to pop my karaoke disc in drive and play them. thanks
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Look no further

Postby CameraMan on Fri Apr 18, 2003 1:29 pm

I use this and it's pretty damn good.

Plug-in for Winamp, plays MP3 files with an associated .CDG file.

http://pages.infinit.net/belier/

I don't what will play a straight CD+G disc in Winamp though.
-John

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Re: Look no further

Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 18, 2003 1:58 pm

CameraMan wrote:I use this and it's pretty damn good.

But it won't play CD+G discs directly, which I think is what big_al is looking for. Unfortunately players that will play mp3/cdg combinations are much more common than players that will play a CD+G disc directly.

TriceraSoft (formerly TyrannoSoft?) offers a free CD+G player here:

http://www.tricerasoft.com/tyrannosoft/downloads.html
(direct link = http://www.tricerasoft.com/cgi-bin/download.asp?prg=CDG1)

It works, but it's not the best. The display is small and not very clear, it can't be resized as far as I can tell, and the program is buggy. But it will work if you have the right setup and are persistent, and it is free.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work with LiteOn drives in my experience. I can get it to play CD+G discs with my Yamaha CRW-3200EZ, but not with my LiteOn LTR-48246S or LTD-166S, despite that fact the Nero Info Tool states that both LiteOn drives support CD+G. This is more proof that just because there is a check in the box next to CD+G in InfoTool doesn't mean that the drive will actually work with CD+G applications. RAW 96 alone does not make for full CD+G support.

Tricerasoft also sells a number of more modern CD+G players that presumably work better. They certainly have more features:

http://www.tricerasoft.com/mimic.html
http://www.tricerasoft.com/mimic2.html
http://www.tricerasoft.com/wincdgpro2.html

Dart Karaoke Studio includes a player as well:

http://www.dartpro.com/products/DARTKaraoke.asp

I imagine any of the packages that allow you to create Karaoke CD+G discs include a player.

If I were you, big_al, I would probably take CameraMan's advice and convert everything to mp3/cdg. That format is much more compact, and the resulting mode-1 discs are much more durable than the CD+G discs.

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Postby DOGSNOT on Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:27 pm

Personaly I have burned cd+g many times. to make a 1to1 copy, just use alcohol 120 because it has a cd+g template. And all you need to do is create an image, then burn it. if you need to know the name of the tool described earlier. I believe it is "cd+g tools". Alot of people use that to convert cd+g to bin and bin to cd+g, and is not very usefull to do a 1 to 1.
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Postby cfitz on Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:01 pm

DOGSNOT wrote:Personaly I have burned cd+g many times. to make a 1to1 copy, just use alcohol 120 because it has a cd+g template

Yes, I have been able to make copies using Alcohol 120% with the LTR-48246S (see earlier post in this thread at http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 7309#57309 ) But it is no good for creating or playing CD+G Karaoke discs using software such as Dart's and TriceraSoft's. All it can do is make 1:1 copies using the raw reading and burning.

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Postby big_al on Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:40 pm

cheers gents thanks for the help but come to the conclusion my liteon 40125S doesnt play CD+G karoake only copys them, tried every program going but to no avail :( for some reason i used to use CLONE CD to copy discs and wasted umpteen disc because it always said succesful write, but when i go to play them on my karaoke machine half of them only came up with music and other half where ok! strange indeed. thats why i wanted a prog to play on my PC to see if they where ok, but saying that DISCJUGGLER has treated me well so far(touch wood). i could always get my karaoke gear and try them at home but ive got more gear than STATUS QUO :lol: and seems a trudge hauling my gear around.any way thanks again chaps.
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Postby cfitz on Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:53 pm

You're welcome. Sorry we didn't have a happier answer for you.

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Postby Inertia on Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:00 pm

The information and devices listed at DART Karaoke Studio CD+G - CD+G read/write support should be an accurate overview of what works for writing and playing CD+G compilations.
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